Origin of Sin, Part Deux

"In all this Job did not charge God foolishly"

Eccl 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

Gen. 45:8, “Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.”

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

 

It does not matter what your problem is. That is TOTALLY irrelevant. What matters is what God's Word says.
And I am afraid you are completely ignoring it.

Now your problem can be solved very easily by you doing two things:
1. Abandon your philosophies and trust the Word of God. This requires faith. You must say, "God, it does not matter what I feel. It does not matter what I think. What matters is what you said. You are God and I am not. I TRUST you."

2. Understand that God willed for evil to exist but HIS motive for it was perfect and holy and wonderful. Therefore, he is not sinning by willing that sin should exist. We see this clearly in the greatest sin of all time- the murder of the Son of God.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

That's not true. But if it were true it would be God's prerogative.
But the fact of the matter is that man is free to come and go as he pleases and he does exactly as he wills all day every day. He has a will and he uses it. He makes choices constantly.

But in a mysterious way the Bible makes it clear that while man does exactly what he wants he ALSO does exactly what God wants. But man's motive and God's motive are not the same for the same deeds.

Joseph said, "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good."

That's the way it works. I don't have to understand it. I just have to believe it because God said it. If God said it, that ought to be enough for you. And he CLEARLY said it numerous times.

All you need to do is YIELD to it. Let him be God and his Word be true.

That you are not doing this is plain seeing as how you are abusing the passage in Job to MAKE it say what you WANT to believe.

All Calvinists believe what I am purporting. I dare say there is not one on this board who would disagree with anything I am saying in this post.

We do what we want every hour of the day. But that NO being can do anything ON ITS OWN is abundantly clear. All power is God's. The power to do anything, even breathe, comes from God. So NO, we cannot do anything on our own.

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

"It is appointed unto man once to die."

Romans 11:36 "For of him and through him and to him are all things."

Romans 8:28 "God worketh all things together for good to them that love God who are the called according to his purpose."

I Timothy 4:6 "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand."

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Yes. It is based FULLY on emotion and NONE on Scripture.

You can't BEAR to think of things a certain way so it does not matter what the Bible says about it.

But if you will calm down and think with your rational mind and your spiritual mind and understand that God has a wonderful, eternal purpose for all things, even the bad ones, and that no tragedy is random but that God planned it for a glorious purpose as is the case with the greatest of tragedies (the brutal murder of God's Son)- then you will begin to see the light on this matter.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

 

Will someone just win this debate with an Arial Black font size 7 post already!

 

Yes! You win!



The person who YELLS the loudest wins!!!!!

 

Willis,

You are correct (moreso). You are not irrelevant, nor is your interpretation of the meaning and message of God and His word.

Luke is correct in one assertion. God CAN do whatever pleases him. But as is obvious some of us disagree strongly with how Luke interprets God, his actions and attributes through the lens of his theology.

It is precisely logical and coherent to assert if God "ordains" everything, then the responsibility for sin does indeed "fall squarely in his lap". Which is what Luke asserts, and he is being consistent in that position. It should also be noted that many "reformed theologians" wrestle with that idea and do not go to that point of assigning the responsiblity of sin to God.

Stay strong, courageous and confident.

Mercy, peace and love in abundance.

 

Can you direct me to the post where you addressed post 65?

 

Yet another post based fully upon assumption and feeling which totally ignores Scripture presented and does not even bother to appeal to a single passage.

There is a reason for this continued pattern.

Scripture teaches the exhaustive Sovereignty of God. It does not appeal to our human nature which likes to think we are completely free and no force outside of ourselves has ANYTHING to do with why we do what we do.

Nor is it an easy pill to swallow that God has a purpose for all things, including the bad ones.

So we just feel our way through theology.

Who cares that the Bible teaches what we do not like- what does not make us feel good?

But it does. And it matters- not what we feel; what we have a problem with is TOTALLY irrelevant.

"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...."
"Let God be true and every man a liar."

The exhaustive Sovereignty of God and his decreed purposes in the deeds of all men, even in the deeds of wicked men can be proven from almost ANY book of the Bible.

Take Proverbs for example:

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.


Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

 

Luke I went through similar verses that you posted before. It seems that you want to force your interpretation into each one of these verses not giving consideration to the possibility that they could have a different meaning, a different interpretation then the one you are assigning to them. Perhaps further study is needed to ascertain what is really being said in such Scriptures. We know that the Bible does not contradict itself.

 

No sir. What you did mot recently was force the last verses of James to say something that they did not even come close to saying.

Before that, if I recall, you abused the passage in Job forcing the idea of allowance where it is not at all applicable just to suit your theology.

The Bible has no contradictions- on this you are right. And the Bible is clear.

God has set his throne in the heavens and rules over ALL.
Nothing happens apart from his purposes.
This is the consistent theme of Scripture.

You must abuse ambiguous passages while ignoring a superabundance of unambiguous passages to come to this nameless theology you adhere to.

 

Yes. I think it would benefit Luke to have more "training". This is why laymen shouldn't be allowed to expound the scriptures. :laugh: Where have I heard that before?

 

The message in Job is clear. You won't accept it.
It is clear that God removed the hedge around Job.
It is clear the God granted permission to Satan to afflict Job, and he did it more than once.
It is clear that Satan could only do as much as God permitted Satan to do.

What else is clear (and this you refuse to see), is that the words of Job, though inspired, are not accurate concerning God. Job does not have insight into the workings of God and Satan. How would he know what goes on in heaven? You don't have that solution do you?

 

I do not know.

Frankly it sounds like your typical misrepresentation and vilification of me.

This is a fallacious argument.

It is called "poisoning the well". It is what you and webdog do in the majority of your posts.

It is also:

 

Listen to it DHK:

"In all this Job did not charge God foolishly."

That is what the Word of God says about Job's comment, "The Lord hath taken away."


Eccl 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

THAT is what God's Word teaches. You do not accept the Word of God. You accept only your tradition and try to FORCE the Word of God into its mold.

But the Word of God is clear whether you are willing to see it or not.

 

Luke you are too young to have such a poor memory. You have stated multiple times that people (only the ones who disagree with you) need to get formal education so that they can understand Calvinisim and scripture. So don't pretend like you've never said that.

 

I thought the Brother is getting his advanced training from Liberty.....Aint that one o urin learnin centers?:laugh:

 

Still true to form.

I did not say that. You cannot BUT misrepresent me.

I said that Calvinism requires a certain amount of intellectual and spiritual maturity to be able to grasp.

And if YOU will recall I also said that about Arminianism.

All of you would do well to learn from Skandelon. He makes fine arguments and has a solid grasp on theology.

He is certainly NOT a Calvinist but he has a higher level of intellectual maturity than most, if not ALL, of those of you who have this new, made-up, nameless theology which has roots neither in Scripture nor Church History.