#2 Dispy v. CT

Hmmm, someone else disagrees:

We can look the word "generation" in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the NT, and we can see that the Greek word is "genea." It says, "The whole multitude of men living at the same time." Also we find in William F. Arndt and Wilber Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the NT and Other Early Christian Literature: "basically, the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time. Contemporaries."

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/genea.html

Perhaps you should let me see it again in its entirety.

1.What is the "primary" meaning of genos?
2. Why does Matthew go back and forth between genos and genea?

Why does Jesus use genos in Matthew 23:33? Yet uses genea just a few minutes later?

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

So since there still is a Jewish race in your view, does that mean they are a race of vipers?

Luke 9:41And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

Do you preach the Jews are perverse?

Is it? What do you mean by Jew? Do converts to Judeaism in the AD700s constitute the biblical Jewish race? Are those black Ethiopian Jews really Jews? How about those white European Jews?

Why does this not suprise me?


"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan called Pella. Here, those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles, finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth...these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each particular of its progress, when finally the abomination of desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which now was approaching its total downfall and final destruction by fire; all this, I say any one that wishes may see accurately stated in the history written by Josephus." (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 5)

 

GH,

From a Dec 13 Post under the Land Promise to Abraham thread.

Remember you misquoted Scofield (12/13/04 - 20:49) labeling him as either "incompetent or a deceiver" and then retracted with a link to the incorrect info (21:57) after I corrected the quote (21:23).

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/2618/2.html?

In any case, here is both Scofield’s note and the citation with PAGE number from BAG (Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich). Curious as to if you just cited them (AND YOU DID) how you could have missed the FIRST definition and then treat it if the idea of “race/family” (my quote) was something you have never even heard of?

[1] (This generation) - (FROM SCOFIELD)

Gr. "genea," the primary definition of which is, "race, kind, family, stock, breed." (So all lexicons.) That the word is used in this sense because none of "these things," i.e. the world-wide preaching of the kingdom, the great tribulation, the return of the Lord in visible glory, and the regathering of the elect, occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus, A.D. 70. The promise is, therefore, that the generation—nation, or family of Israel—will be preserved unto "these things"; a promise wonderfully fulfilled to this day.


Do not know where you got your information, but you should check the source. The Greek is indeed genea as Scofield notes.

Regarding the accuracy of his definition, my Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich lexicon has the following (and I did have to type this in, since it is only available in print): (FROM BAG)
genea (of course it is in the Greek alphabet, not english transliteration)
1. Lit., those descended fr. a common ancestor, a clan, then race, kind gener.
2. Basically the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living...
3. Age, time of a generation. (page 153)

I do not deny that your sources suggest a meaning other than primary. It fits their theology better!

I have just got to put this in again as well...

(From 12/13/04 - 14:23)

HERE IS THE FUNDAMENTAL INTERPRETIVE ERROR OF THE AMILLENNIAL POSITION!!! PAY ATTENTION!!!

AMILLENNIALLISTS READ THE NT BACK INTO THE OT, RATHER THAN TAKING THE OT AS FOUNDATIONAL FOR THE INTERPRETATION OF THE NT!!! It is as if the NT is the starting point and the OT is reinterpreted to fit ones theology that is drawn from the NT with little regard for the OT.

I MAINTAIN, FROM A DISPENSATIONAL PERSPECTIVE, THAT THE OT MUST BE THE FOUNDATION FOR THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE NT!!! You cannot read the statements of Jesus and John in isolation from the MANY CLEAR promises of the OT regarding Israel, the kingdom, and the New Covenant (again, with Israel, but with benefits for the church). The Jews of Jesus day expected a literal kingdom because the OT PROMISES A LITERAL KINGDOM!!! Sadly, they crucified their King after rejecting His message and once again delayed the promises of God to be fulfilled in future generations.

 

GH,

Not sure I follow your line of reasoning re the "perverse Jews"?

My position has been clearly stated repeatedly. No problem, I will restate.

The Jews are the PHYSICAL descendants of Abraham, through Isaac, through Israel. Certainly there has been some intermarriage with other races. Currently we cannot identify the 10 lost tribes. No problem, God knows who they are and He will save them after the age of the Gentiles. Why do I have to keep saying this?

Luke 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (See Deut 30 as well.)

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

He interprets it that way because of his pre-supposition that those things didn't happen by AD70. Paul clearly says the gospel had gone throughout the world so he is wrong on that, if one holds that the tribulation was from AD68-AD70 then he is wrong on that,etc....

Just because something didn't happen the way you think it should, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Never said otherwise.

WHY, I'M NOT A-MILL!

Still unanswered:

1.What is the "primary" meaning of genos?
2. Why does Matthew go back and forth between genos and genea?

Why does Jesus use genos in Matthew 23:33? Yet uses genea just a few minutes later?

Luke 9:41And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse race , how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

Or perhaps it fits the context.

Does primary mean it must be used everytime? If God wanted to indicate in their lifetime which word would He use? Genea or genos?

 

The more you post, the more I think you have no idea what you are talking about. Most of the preterist I know of not only believe in OSAS but are strong Calvinist. Read John Gill.

 

Boy, now here is very good thought. It applies to both sides. You cannot set your expectations as the standard by which truth is to be measured. To be frank, I think there are dispensationalists who do this and I think there are covenantalists who do this. In short, all are guilty of it.

 

I agree. That comment was directed at Scofield, not any one on this board.

Nothing personal Ed. Sometimes during these debates I don't choose my words wisely. Daniel David is rubbing off on me, and thats not a good thing.

My point is that very few of A-Mill, Post-Mil, or full-preterist I have read believe you can lose your salvation. In fact I know of none.

 

Yes.

Not sure where you are going with that, but I will say that most who believe you can lose your salvation are in the Pre-Mill camp. Disagree? After all I remember you telling me 90%(?) of evangelicals were Pre-Mill?

Hippolytus of Rome
(170 - 236)

On the Significance of A.D.70
"Why was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of the ancient fabrication of the calf? Or was it on account of the ancient idolotry of the people? Was it for the blood of prophets? ..By no means, for in all these transgressions, they always found pardon open to them. But it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is co-eternal with the Father (Against the Jew 7)."

30. Come, then, O blessed Isaiah; arise, tell us clearly what thou didst prophesy with respect to the mighty Babylon. For thou didst speak also of Jerusalem, and thy word is accomplished. For thou didst speak boldly and openly: "Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire; your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate as overthrown by many strangers. The daughter of Sion shall be left as a cottage in a vineyard, and as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city."

What then? Are not these things come to pass? Are not the things announced by thee fulfilled? Is not their country, Judea, desolate? Is not the holy place burned with fire? Are not their walls cast down? Are not their cities destroyed? Their land, do not strangers devour it? Do not the Romans rule the country? And indeed these impious people hated thee, and did saw thee asunder, and they crucified Christ. Thou art dead in the world, but thou livest in Christ." (Fragments of Dogmatic and Historical Works, 30)

On The "Iron Kingdom" of Daniel
"Speak with me, O blessed Daniel. Give me full assurance, I beseech thee. Thou dost prophesy concerning the lioness in Babylon; for thou wast a captive there. Thou hast unfolded the future regarding the bear; for thou wast still in the world, and didst see the things come to pass. Then thou speakest to me of the leopard; and whence canst thou know this, for thou art already gone to thy rest? Who instructed thee to announce these things, but He who formed thee in (from ) thy mother's womb? That is God, thou sayest. Thou hast spoken indeed, and that not falsely. The leopard has arisen; the he-goat is come; he hath broken his horns in pieces; he hath stamped upon him with his feet. He has been exalted by his fall; (the) four horns have come up from under that one. Rejoice, blessed Daniel! thou hast not been in error: all these things have come to pass.
"After this again thou hast told me of the beast dreadful and terrible. 'It had iron teeth and claws of brass: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it.' Already the iron rules; already it subdues and breaks all in pieces; already it brings all the unwilling into subjection; already we see these things ourselves. Now we glorify God, being instructed by thee." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V, p. 210, pars. 32, 33. )

Clement of Alexandria
TITUS FLAVIUS CLEMENS
(c.150- 220)

On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation
"We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."

"These two thousand three hundred days, then, make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway, and it was half a week; and for a half, Vespasian with Otho, Galba, and Vitellius reigned. And on this account Daniel says, "Blessed is he that cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." For up to these days was war, and after them it ceased. And this number is demonstrated from a subsequent chapter, which is as follows: "And from the time of the change of continuation, and of the giving of the abomination of desolation, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." " (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)

On Matthew 24:3,34
But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therfore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ." And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken. (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)

 

Where does the passage say world-wide? Tribes of the land is a reference to the 12 tribes of Israel, not Austrailians. Check your greek on land.

John Gill:
And then shall the tribes of the earth, that is, the land of Judea;
for other lands, and countries, were not usually divided into tribes, as that was; neither were they affected with the calamities and desolations of it, and the vengeance of the son of man upon it; at least not so as to mourn on that account, but rather were glad and rejoiced:

I don't think posties believe that. Post-Mill and A-Mill still hold to the future coming ,resurrection, and judgement. They see the events of AD70 as "a" coming, not "the" coming. Likewise most will see the Olivet Discourse and much of Revelation speaks to the fall of Jerusalem when Christ came in judgement.