Atonement

The Atonement of Jesus Christ is for the whole world, but is conditional on "believing", as in "he that believeth and is baptized will be saved, but, he that does not believe, will be damned" (Mark 16:16)

Whether Calvinism likes it or not is not the issue, but the fact is that there will be people in hell who Jesus died for, like Judas. That Jesus died for him is evident from Judas partaking of the Lord's Supper, where he, along with the other eleven, was told that His blood was shed for them. The main point being that Jesus could have passed the Cup of the New Testament in His blood, for the forgiviness of sins, after Judas has left the room. But Luke informs us that Judas actually too part in the Lord's Supper.

Now, if a person will not believe and be saved, then they will be damned. Yes, they will then have to bear their own sins, since they have rejected Jesus as their Redeemer.

 

So the unbeliever's sins are paid for twice? </font>[/QUOTE]HOW?

Jesus' Atonement for sin was a ONCE for ALL atonement for sin, ALL the sin of the world.

Where is the second Atonement?

 

Cassidy;

Scripture never says man cannot respond in trust once hearing the gospel. Scripture never says man cannot hear or understand the gospel. These are mans ideas.

I already answerd that man must trust in Christ first eph1:12

Who says we haven't the ability.

True there are even more than two ways to fish but, the way the Jews did was with a net and they always used bait. Of course they didn't have to take the bait but like in fishing for men if the man see's what is offerd is better than what he already has he is attracted. This is why our witness is so important. In order for the fish to take the bait he develops trust that it is good and takes it.
May Christ Shine His light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hunger has a wonderful effect on taking the bait!

 

Casidy, you say:

"Are you saying you believe the bible is wrong in Romans 3:11? "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

And what about Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord."

No, the Bible is not wrong, but your understanding of it clearly is faulty. There is no problem with Romans 3:11, if you know what Paul means here: no one can naturally seek after God, without the aid of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself says that the Holy Spirit will convict the world (elect?) of sin...because they believe not on me.

On your remarks on Romans 11:8. Have you read Acts 28:27, where Paul says, "and their eyes have they closed"?

And for your text from 1 Corinthians 14:21, again, they choose not to hear. This is what Paul and Barnabas said in Acts 13:46, "...but seeing that you reject it (the Gospel), and consider yourselves unworthy of eternal life" Are these elect Jews that they were talking to?

 

Cassidy;

I would never say that scripture is wrong even when it says there is no God. The who Paul is quoting in Rom 3 is a fool in Psalms 14 and 53 No where in Romans 3 does Paul say that this is reffering to the natural man that is only assumed by Calvinist but is saying that this is what natural man thinks.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

This verse is all inclusive, it even includeds you and I. So are you saying no one understands not even Christians. If so no one is saved.

Paul is speaking about Israel, not Gentiles. Read the previous verse.

There is a huge difference between will hear and can't hear. It doesn't say they can't hear.

You know as well as I do we are not saved by the Law. Trust is not something that is only common among friends. Enemies trust each other all the time. It's called surrender. When an enemy surrenders he is trusting his enemy won't kill him.

No one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father Jn 6:44

No one is saved with out trust
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Paul is quoting the old testament, explaining HISTORY to His Roman audience! Romans 3 is an introductory OPENING for what follows! It is not specific instruction to the Romans! A college professor should be able to make that distinction!

 

What, another argument of convenience? The context is provided in the immediate preceding verse:

[/qb] This isn't history. Paul is applying this scripture to both "Jews and Gentiles"... "all under sin."

You are reading your presuppositions into this text... because it undermines your conclusion when read with its normal contextual meaning.

 

scottJ;

You're right, He is. What he is saying is that all sinners say the same things in there hearts. He is repeating the exact same thing that David said. The fool says in His heart there is no God.
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
This is the self righteousness of the sinners heart it doesn't matter if he is Jew or Gentile all sinners think the same way.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Where does this verse say that this is the Natural Man's moral condition. It doesn't say that at all. This is added by Calvinism. Before I was saved this is exactly what I though of all Bible Thumpers like myself now.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

So the unbeliever's sins are paid for twice? </font>[/QUOTE]God never "got paid" -- He only "got tortured".

This is the problem with Calvinism it fails to see "God so loved that HE GAVE"

just like it fails to see "God so Loved the WORLD that HE GAVE".

I guess once you start to omit or redefine the details - "exluding more details" does not seem to be a big deal anymore.

It is more accurate to say "two people suffer for the unsaved person and ONE for the saved", and BOTH of their OWN FREE WILL.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So the unbeliever's sins are paid for twice? </font>[/QUOTE]God never "got paid" -- He only "got tortured".</font>[/QUOTE]Let me rephrase it then - do unbelievers get punished for sins that God already punished Himself for? Why would He require double punishment for those sins?

 

Whose condition do you think it is?

Actually, no. It is a matter of letting scripture interpret scripture through cross referencing to relevant passages that discuss man's nature.

 

This isn't history. Paul is applying this scripture to both "Jews and Gentiles"... "all under sin."

You are reading your presuppositions into this text... because it undermines your conclusion when read with its normal contextual meaning. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]The quoted scripture is from Psalm 14. David is lamenting about the Jews.

Paul is not "applying" this scripture to anything He is explaining that ALL mankind, because of the first man's sin is under the same penalty of death! He is saying that because of the "cares of life" we refuse to hear, and understand, we refuse to obey and follow God, even going out of our way to ignore God, and because of that we have made ourselves "unprofitable", and none of us does RIGHTEOUSNESS!

That however, does not mean that we are incapable of hearing and believing. It does not mean that we are "totally depraved".

It does mean that we are "strangers to God", and guilty of sin!

HOWEVER, Paul goes on to say

You see, Scott J, Paul himself refutes the doctrine of "election" and what you've been saying.

It would pay you well to simply sit down and read Romans through. Don't look for ammunition you can use against us Non-Calvinists, read it for meaning, and let Paul give you the same instruction he was giving to the Romans.

 

This shows a complete lack of understanding of ATONEMENT.

Those who get cast into the lake of fire, the second death, do so because they lack faith in God! The fact that they lack faith in God, says "I do not believe in God, so why would I repent from sin?" They continue to sin into their natural death because they have no reason to repent! They are not "punished for sin" they are eliminated by God because they do not have faith in Him, not because they sin!

The atonement removed the penalty for sin, death, from man so that man through faith in Jesus could have everlasting life. If there had been no atonement there could be no everlasting life for man. The atonement did not remove sin from man, man must repent from sin, Confess and seek forgiveness individually.

The point of this is that Atonement removed the penalty of sin from man, so that man does not die for sin! That leaves only one thing that man can die for and that is LACK OF FAITH in God!

 

This isn't history. Paul is applying this scripture to both "Jews and Gentiles"... "all under sin."

You are reading your presuppositions into this text... because it undermines your conclusion when read with its normal contextual meaning. </font>[/QUOTE][/qb]The quoted scripture is from Psalm 14. David is lamenting about the Jews.

Paul is not "applying" this scripture to anything He is explaining that ALL mankind, because of the first man's sin is under the same penalty of death!</font>[/QUOTE][/qb] That isn't what the text says. The text says what it says Wes... not what you say it says.

Your rebuttal is kind of funny though. You said it was Paul giving history. I said it was Paul applying scripture.... then you went on to describe Paul's use as an application of scripture.

Are you reading between the lines somewhere? This text doesn't say that we refuse to hear... further it goes beyond saying that none do good. It says there are "none righteous". This is not only what someone does but rather what they are.

None righteous... none that doeth good... Given the choice, I will believe what God's Word says over what you say it says.

It means a whole lot more than that. It says that all (unsaved) are under sin. They are unrighteous. It is only through the imputed righteousness of Christ discussed a little later that man can be declared "righteous".

Nothing in that text refutes the doctrine of election unless subjected to your "read my bias between the lines" form of interpretation. Nothing.

Note, There is "no distinction". Justification is by the gift by His grace.

The question you still refuse to answer becomes very relevant here. If God makes no distinction and it is a gift by His grace... then that precludes the idea that an natural, carnal, unregenerate sinner can make a good choice deserving of merit.

It has been awhile since I practiced but I have memorized the first 10 chapters plus chapter 12. Not only have I read it in context, I have meditated on it in context. Thanks for the exhortation though.

Right back at you. So far it has not been me avoiding your direct, simple questions. I have not avoided the context of the scriptures I have cited but have as consistently as I can directed everything back to scripture in context and letting scripture interpret scripture.

You don't have to agree with me but you aren't accomplishing anything by suggesting that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid or ignorant... except maybe stroking your own ego.

 

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Scripture never says man cannot respond in trust once hearing the gospel. Scripture never says man cannot hear or understand the gospel. These are mans ideas.

Here we have the jumbled response of Calvinism.

In Romans 3 Paul lumps all the world - Jews AND Gentiles into a group showing total depravity. "NONE who understands". A view of mankind WITHOUT the Gospel!

But in 1Cor 2 WITH the Gospel "WE HAVE the mind of Christ" and are able to understand "spiritual things". So in Romans 3 those SAME people are being shown as "without understanding" because it is a view of ALL the world WITHOUT the gospel solution.

By contrast 1Cor 14 and Romans 11 are speaking of those who rebell against the Gospel IN the context of the drawing and saving power of God that ENABLES choice! "BEHOLD I stand the door and knock!". That is the WRONG place to lump in the non-Gospel ALL MEN in rebellion concept of Romans 3!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yes. See Luke 12:45-49.

Because God "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" SO THAT he might make known the riches of His glory (Romans 9).

God's dealing kindly with the lost -- paying for theis sins and drawing them to repentence is done SO THAT He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy!

It is the Calvinist future scenario vs the Arminian future scenario. There is no glory to God in the response to the parent about the child in that Calvinist future scenario.

The ONLY way the case of the lost and God's treatement of them results in glory to God - in that FUTURE scenario is the Arminian Bible view of God who "is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

This is why God is willing to suffer EVEN for the sins of those whom He knows will CHOOSE against Christ though they are fully ENABLED to choose life by the supernatural DRAWING of God.

And it shows EARNEST factual backing to HIS OWN claim that HE SO LOVED THE WORLD! That HE "desires ALL men to be SAVED AND come to a KNOWLEDGE of the truth" 1 Tim 2 -- He is NOT willing for ANY to perish! That God wants ALL mankind to come to repentance.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If what you say here is true, then getting saved removes the sin nature from us...right? Why do "saved persons. "Christians", sin then?

The sin of the world has been atoned. The sin of the world has not been removed from those who believe and yet remains in those who are not saved! It simply don't work that way! Either All SIN in ALL times and for the Whole world are atoned, or NOT ONE SIN IS ATONED!

 

Remind me by quoting the entire post containing the question you say that I refuse to answer.

Your definition of "merit" is? The reason I ask is that Merit denotes works! Salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast! However, every single human that gets salvation gets it the same way, by choosing to believe in God! The choice is believe or not believe, there is no "maybe", or "all of the above", or "none of the above" option to choose, only believe or not believe.