Baptist Purgatory

Lacy,

I have been debate with you about millennial exclusion not long time ago.

I am aware of the confernece is oming up this month in near Dallas, TX.

The teaching of millennial exclusion have lot of errors and unbiblical. I do not agree with you and Joey Faust.

You believe Christians shall be cast out in the hell for a temporary time. That is not biblical teaching. No verse supports millennial teaching.

Matt. 25:26-30 telling us very clear, Christ shall send a lazy servant into the everlasting fire, no promise for a lazy servant shall be released out of the hell after 1,000 years. Cast into the outer darkness with gnashing of teeth is a obivously eternality punishment, not temporary.

Faust believes Rev. 2:11, a lazy Christian shall hurt 'second death', yet it is temporary time. Faust knows better that, 'second death' is speak of everlasting punishment in the lake of fire according to Rev. 20:15.

Also, Faust teaches, 'kingdom of God' is speaks of millennial kingdom. There is noone find anywhere in the Bible supports men's teaching this is a millennial kingdom.

Gal. 5:19-21 telling us, names of sins, what they doing evil or wicked, shall not have eternal life, and cannot enter eternality kingdom, will go into everlatsing punishment.

Kingdom of God/heaven is a picture of people who believe and follow Christ, shall have their destiny place of their hope is eternal life, not so called, "millennial kingdom", but eternal life. Christ tells us, we must be born again, OR cannot enter the kingdom of God - John 3:3,7. Christ explains it so very simple.

There is so much things that I do not agree with Faust & you, what you believe on these things about millennial kingdom.

I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Sometimes (More often than not) the threat of future punishment is what God uses to produce said fruit. What "fruit" was produced in the lives of the Christians God killed (chastened) at Corinth for having the wrong spirit about them concerning the Lord's table?

"Punish" and "chasten" are synonyms.

WEBSTER 1828

CHASTEN, v.t.

1. To correct by punishment; to punish; to inflict pain for the purpose of reclaiming an offender; as, to chasten a son with a rod.

I will chasten him with the rod of men. 2 Sam. 7.

2. To afflict by other means.

As many as I love I rebuke and chasten. Rev. 3.

3. To purify from errors or faults.

PUN'ISH, v.t. [L. punio, from the root of poena,pain. The primary sense is to press or strain.]

1. To pain; to afflict with pain, loss or calamity for a crime or fault; primarily, to afflict with bodily pain, as to punish a thief with pillory or stripes; but the word is applied also to affliction by loss of property, by transportation, banishment, seclusion from society, &c. The laws require murderers to be punished with death. Other offenders are to be punished with fines, imprisonment, hard labor,&c. God punishes men for their sins with calamities personal and national.

2. To chastise; as, a father punishes his child for disobedience.

3. To regard with pain or suffering inflicted on the offender; applied to the crime; as, to punish murder or theft.

Why would it be meaningless after death but so much an integral part of our walk now? When our walk is done, then we get our reward.

Also, I showed you a bunch of scriptures that prove there will be negative rewards at the JSOC.

I feel what you are saying, but if you consistently divide eternal salvation from reward, your statement becomes meaningless. If Christ has taken even our chastening then why does God chasten us at all?

The previous verses (35-38)contain warnings: Don't cast away your confidence. Have patience so you get the promise. If we draw back, God will not be pleased. Do all Christians always please God? Do no Christians "draw back"? Paul is encouraging them in 10:39 because they apparantly are faithfully fighting the good fight. This in no way undoes the numerous warnings. (See Eze 18:24-30) Was Esau a son after he sold his birthright? (See Heb 12) Did he find place for repentance? (v17)What is our "firstborn son blessing"? See Heb 12:28,29

Hebrews 12:28
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

lacy

 

"If ye are NOT chastened then are ye bastards and NOT sons"

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Here is where our debate is going to break down. Although Webster makes psuedo-synonyms of punsih and chasten, the Word of God shows a difference.

The most common word for chastening are forms of paedeia which deals with instruction, teaching, and correction.

The most common word for punishment are forms of timoria which deals with punishment and vindication.

Christ took my punishment on the cross.

God chastens me now to produce the peaceable fruit of righteousness in my life. That peaceable fruit of righteousness is meaningless after death.

I chasten my children out of love, with the purpose of instructing them and producing proper fruit in their lives.

 

1Corinthians 3
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Brother Bart, you cannot deny that there is a destruction for believers at the judgment seat of Christ according to these verses. What does it mean to be destroyed by God? Whether you want to believe that God puts him in the boiler room, or puts him in hell, he is not going to be reigning with Christ. The reward for obedience cannot be obtained any other way, to allow disobedient Christians to obtain the crown that God promised to those who love Him (keep His commandments) is an affront to those who gave their lives for their faith, knowing that they would obtain a better resurrection.

 

Proverbs 23
13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Apparently training a child to respond properly to chastisement would have some bearing on his future state after death.

Hebrews 12
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If we despise the chastening of the Lord, we are bastards and will not receive the inheritance of a first-born son.

 

Which was it in 1Cor 11:29-31? Which was it with Ananias and Sapphria? Which was it when the fornicator was put out opf the church and "delivered unto Satan?" (Later referred to as "punishment" in 2 Cor 2:6)

Does a good father not also use the threat of real future reward/chastening to produce fruit? Do your kids get to pick their chastening and the timing of that chastening.

If you say to your son, "Have the lawn finished before I get home or you can't go to Six-flags this weekend" and he disobeys, do you let him go anyway?

Likewise when God repeatedly warns eternally-secure, Once-saved-always-saved, bought-by-the-blood, believers against certain behavior which will keep us out of the Kingdom,(I Cor 5:9,10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:1-5, etc) does he finally say, "Not really! Psych! Come on in?"

 

Trying to get this straight in my head, and I probably will not buy the book, nor spend a lot of study on the subject in the very near future (possibly at a later time). I have been trying to keep up with the threads. Is this "purgatory' supposedly temporary, and what will be the dividing line in determining who will go there? Specifically, will it be everyone that is not sin-free or perfect at the time of that particular judgement?

 

"Baptist Purgatory" is a term made up by those who oppose the doctrine for subjective, emotional reasons, but who cannot reasonably argue their position from scripture. (Sorry so sarcastic.)

The doctrine is Millenial Exclusion.


Here are a couple of links to small online books which could give you a better overview. (D M Panton and W F Roadhouse.) They are both inexpensive to print and quick reads.


http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline/panton/judgmentseat.htm

http://www.inthebeginning.org/kingdom/roadhouse/believers.pdf

Here is the homepage of Schoettle Publishing's online books and works. This is a great place to start.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline.htm

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/otherworks.htm

Lacy

 

Chastening of Hebrews chapter 12 is deal about our Christian living, not after our death.

Hebrews 12 is a good example of an earthly father who is discipling his child to doing correct things, and to obey his father. If a son does not obey his father, he will punish his son, put son in the bedroom like as 'grounded' for a while. Just same with our Heaven Father is disciplining us in our Christian life. If we sinned or not obey God, He will chastening us, like like face finanical problem, or our vehicle appears trouble, or our healthy appears trouble, etc. God chastening Christians in many ways while we are living.

There is no evidence find anywhere in the Bible telling us, a Christian shall be cast into hell for a TEMPORARY time. Millennial exclusion sounds like as purgatory to me. I know, Lacy Evans, Joey Faust do not use term, "Christian purgatory", because they do not willing to be compromising with Roman Catholic's teaching of purgatory. Yet, obivously, I can easy see baptist's teaching of millennial exclusion, that a Christian shall be cast into the hell for a temporary is obivously purgatory doctrine.

Of course, go ahead you(Evans) will say to me, "NO! we do not teaching Christians purgatory!"

I understand, but, I know why, because you seems not comfortable being to be compromsing with Roman Catholic's teaching on purgatory.

You should be aware that purgatory is a hertic teaching, because it is unbiblical.

Bible is very clear teaching us, once a lazy servant or unbeliever send to outer darkness, then, that's it, no promise for a lazy servant shall be finally being released out of it beyond the judgement day according Matt. 25:26-30, and many other passages in the Bible.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

I don't think you understand the teaching of purgatory. You need to be able to explain why purgatory is unbiblical, and then show that what we believe is the same thing. If it sounds like purgatory, there is probably a good reason for it. To those who don't understand the difference, our observance of the Lord's supper sounds a lot like the Catholic mass. What is the difference?

 

Please prove to us, that 'kingdom of God/heaven' is so called, "millennial kingdom" in the Bible.

Also, please prove to us, a word, 'rest' in Hebrews chapter 3 or 4 is so called, "millennial kingdom"?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

the rest of Hebrews 4 is found in Christ...not in any type of purgatory, etc.

 

PastorSBC1303,

That's right. Nothing saying find anywhere in Hebrews 4 teaching on purgatory.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Please, any of you who are in opposition to this doctrine, provide ONE verse that says our chastening is in THIS life only.
Just one.

Anybody?

(silence)


In HIS service;
Jim

 

av1611jim,

Cannot you read and understand the whole context of Hebrews chapter 12 talking about chasten?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Heb 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and GODLY FEAR:
29
For our God is a consuming fire.

The whole of Scripture is clear. God deals very justly with His children. He also is very displeased by disobedience. Two things are in view when you consider Chastisement.

First; it is for you. It is to correct ungodly behavior in this life. It is to punishwillful continued rebellion. Should you continue as one of His children in rebellion 'til the day you die, after having tasted the good things of God, there is but ONE place for you to be corrected. That place is at the JSOC. It is THERE you will "know the terror of the LORD."

Secondly; it is to demonstrate God's love for you. That's right, I said demonstrate HIS love. How is that? What Father would let His children continue in rebellion and misery if He could correct it? Paul clearly showed you this in Heb. 12:9-10. Yet the carnal mind will rebel just as surely as a teenager. "For the carnal mind is at enmity with God". God's love is ever patient. Count on it. A thousand years is but a single day to Him. Therefore Millenial Exclusion is but a days' worth of grounding. "No son, you CAN'T enjoy the Kingdom with your friends. You insisted on rebelling against what I have told you. Now you must WAIT until the 'picnic' is over."

Count on it.

How to escape? Simple. "He that loveth me, doeth my commands". "How call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things I say?"

What did He command? Many things. The LAST thing He told us was to GO and be witnesses of Him. So...GO!!! And one day you will hear, "Well done, thou good and FAITHFUL servant. Enter thou into the joy of thy LORD."

In HIS service;
Jim

 

I happen to be preaching on it at the upcoming conference.

I have been studying it for MONTHS!

In HIS service;
Jim