Democracy in Iraq

You are confusing enforcement of civil law with making and interpreting civil law. Push your representatives to make the right laws. Push the President to nominate the right people for the Court and push your representatives to confirm them. Once the law is changed and can be upheld by the Court the President will enforce it. The President is already against abortion but he is not King.

Also, understand, the government does not require abortions by civil law. They have permitted them in certain situations to accomodate those among us who do not believe as most Christians do. That's terrible but there would be no abortions if people didn't want them. It is the sinfulness among us that wants them. Encourage our fellow citizens to stop the practice themselves.

While abortions are murder and should be against civil law, the fact that under some conditions they are not, does not negate moral law much less God's law.

We can not expect a civil government to make all law for every situation nor can we expect it to reach the perfection of God's law unless we were to make the Holy Bible part of our Code of Federal Regulations. That's not likely is it and besides we'd then argue over what version of the Bible to use. God rules us all and by His law Christ is the head of the Church and the head of Family through the husband and father.

Patrick

 

My, how complicated you make it sound.

Murder should be illegal.

 

100 Senators
435 House members
9 Supremes, not counting Diana Ross
1 President
1 Vice president.

546 people, responsible for the murder of 4000 Americans every day.

 

Those governed--

The U.S. of A. seems to be what could be called a "democratic republic". However, we participate as a "body politic" only in a low percentage of "those eligible to vote; so we wind up with a "representative" government which is probably chosen be "special interest" groups.

Then we allow "appointed" judges to "in effect" make laws which have profound consequences. i.e. Roe vs. Wade. The Supreme Court was set up to "interpret" the Constitution, not to make laws of the land.

We seem to be "split" evenly regarding some rather serious moral issues. We want to take God out of everything public.(See "plebes" and "publicans" in Roman history.)

The moral decadence into which our "system" has fallen is despicable. We got what we have allowed to happen. We need to repent and ask God to forgive our wicked ways.

Re: Israel of the O.T.

They had trouble with "theocracy". They demanded a king--like the rest of the world. That did not suit them either. The people of God have the same problem today.

Patience, Jesus will return--King of Kings, Lord of Lords. All the kingdoms of this world will fail--just as they always have. The god of this world is judged--his reign is coming to an end.

Yes, the "good guys" have already won--not of themselves, but because of the One who rides the white horse and wields the Two-Edged Sword--The King of Kings.

Are we ready?

Selah,

Bro. James

[ February 02, 2005, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

ERRATA: publicans should be: patricians in the above reference.

P. S. Plebeians and Paticians were governed by a Caesar(Czar), most of whom were not very benevolent "dictators".

Sorry,

Bro. James

 

Sure, his official agenda was long and very detailed. It was published prior to the election.

Abortion WASN'T EVEN MENTIONED!

For how long will we accept (and make) excuses?

 

There have been more abortions and funding for them has increased under Bush as opposed to under Clinton. Who is the abortion president?

 

How simple you make it sound Jim! Indeed, to you and me it is simple! It is absolutely wrong. Abortion is murder and murder is illegal. We know that! It should be that easy but it is not. It is complicated because civil law is not necessarily God's law.

Not everyone believes that life begins with conception and, therefore, those who don't - including many Christians, do not believe that abortion is murder. I believe it's clear from the word of God that life begins at conception but a lot of people are convinced it doesn't begin until the moment of birth.

We also live in a time of "me, me, me" - not that it hasn't really been that way since Adam's fall - and many have come to equate abortion with the rights of women. They view the child as a part of the woman's body and therefore solely her decision. I believe it's clear from the word of God that we don't even own our own bodies much less that of those God entrusts us to conceive, bear, and raise up. We belong to God. Life comes from God belongs to God.

Our government represents the will of the majority of our citizens. Until the majority are convinced and convicted that abortion is completely wrong it will likely be with us. The word of God even implies that the majority of people do not follow Him and so we are assured that making and keep laws that represent God's will always be a challenge. We have to work with unbelievers and liberal believers in the process of civil government. We have to appeal to human morality, compassion, and common sense even as we hold to the word of God. That's a downside of democracy because, despite being the best we've seen, it will never be as good as having our Lord as King.

Until the citizens demand that their representatives change the law it won't be changed. The power of change rest with the people and this is where to base problem lies. Mankind lives in sin and ignorance.

The point has been made that the President could end abortion by ignoring the Court order. That's not realistically possible right now given the way so many have come to accept that the Court can decide such matters. We - our whole society - takes everything to Court now for rulings. Frankly, I wouldn't mind trying that on this issue and several others but there are possible negative effects from that. Few would tolerate a President who thumbed the Court even if it were needed. It might well backfire to further solidify the position of liberals and unbelievers.

It would be better if the change came from the will of the people and, perhaps, we have a good chance of that happening. I think getting a Court that recognizes its limits of power would also be a good move and, perhaps, we also have a chance of that.

I do pray and hope that abortion can be ended once and for all in this nation.

Patrick

 

Both.

 

Sure. Lots of people believed that slavery was ok, too. One time, people even thought that certain people should be put in gas chambers. They are ALL WRONG. There is no middle ground and there is no room for compromise on murder. Until that sinks in to the "pro-life" crowd, the babies die, and the fake politicians laugh all the say to the bank to cash their HUGE pension checks.

The truth will ultimately prevail. I'd rather fight for the truth in obedience to God, and let the results to Him. He is All Wise...why speculate on the possible ramifications of obedience to Him?

That's nice, but the Devil's crowd doesn't fight that way. If 51% of the people decide that abortion is bad, it matters not unless our politicians make abortion illegal. Man is fallen, that's why God instituted government and law.

It will never end completely, it never has. But legal protection would save a HUGE number of the babies, and the killing would not be legally protected by you and me ("we the people").

 

Sure. Lots of people believed that slavery was ok, too. One time, people even thought that certain people should be put in gas chambers. They are ALL WRONG. There is no middle ground and there is no room for compromise on murder. Until that sinks in to the "pro-life" crowd, the babies die, and the fake politicians laugh all the say to the bank to cash their HUGE pension checks.

The truth will ultimately prevail. I'd rather fight for the truth in obedience to God, and let the results to Him. He is All Wise...why speculate on the possible ramifications of obedience to Him?

That's nice, but the Devil's crowd doesn't fight that way. If 51% of the people decide that abortion is bad, it matters not unless our politicians make abortion illegal. Man is fallen, that's why God instituted government and law.

It will never end completely, it never has. But legal protection would save a HUGE number of the babies, and the killing would not be legally protected by you and me ("we the people"). </font>[/QUOTE]All good points Jim!

I do not advocate compromise on what is right and wrong. That we can not do because it is our Lord who determines what is right and wrong.

However, the manner in which we go about getting the world to do what is right is subject to compromise whether we want it or not. We have to convince enough people - believers and non-believers - to take the action we know is right.

That's not so simple. You can not just tell a non-believer to do what you know is right because the word of God says so. They will not do it because they don't even understand the word of God.

Patrick

 

I don't think we disagree too far on this, so I don't want to degenerate into being picky just to continue a debate. I would only say that allowing politicians to get away with things as useless as the PBA ban and doing little more is an unacceptable compromise.

 

The government loves to regulate that which is and those whom are easy to regulate!

Patrick