Dispensationalists

Paul33: "Accept the idea of a pretrib rapture, and the rest of dispensationalism comes with it"

What were you doing 53 years ago (less a month, in Apr 1952)
when i accepted the idea of a pretrib rapture?

What do you think of this part of the package i bought
back then?

Rom 10:9 (KJV1611 edition):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be saued.

 

1) Being wrong and denying the Rapture does not cause one to go through the tribulation. It just means you were wrong and will probably be very disappointed God didn't do it your way.

2) You're in the tribulation period - this is "hell on earth!"

3) What verse, pray tell, did you get 99% and 1% from?

4) just because I am in the "tribulation" or go through the "great tribulation" does not in any way mean that I will ever have to endure "God's wrath." Neither Noah nor Lot did, and neither will I. They endured their trials and tribulations, and so will I. But, I stand firm on the promise of Christ that how...

"Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Rom 5:9

"...and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come." 1Th 1:10



[ March 13, 2005, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: covenant ]

 

Dr. Bob,

Where in the world did you get your assessment of the tribulation period?

Hyperbole.

Covenant, great response and accurate, too.

This "wrath" thing that pre-tribbers resort too to justify their position is utter nonsense. You answered it correctly.

Well, Dr. Bob, is Covenant's assessment of "God's wrath" correct? Going through the tribulation does not mean we are experiencing God's wrath. What say you?

 

Ed, like usual, what in the world are you talking about?

 

This very subject has been a real challenge for me feeling like I might not belong in a pre-trib dominated church if I lean towards a post-trib belief. I have discussed this several times with church leaders and am not counting myself out just yet; we have agreed that it isn’t an essential and there’s plenty of scripture that talks about having different beliefs, vanity, and what is most important in the body of Christ and eschatological belief isn’t one of them. We were even joking about it the other day when I told them I was going to have to lasso them. If I’m ever counted out, someone’s going to have a lot of explaining to do. I will admit it’s hard to get past at times and being the underdog consumes a lot of my prayer time and study time for rebuttal, and that time could probably be better spent and that seems tragic to me. Although, flying off to soon to the wrong guy or being still here when you should have left has to be important also. Quite a dilemma, but fellowship has to be first.

 

I didn't
mention it so you could string
out a line of question marks (?). </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for small favors???????????????

 

Benjamin,

I know where you are coming from and I agree with you completely. Even though I'm amil and we're pretty close on that. I agree that it can be tough when you're in a church where the pastor holds a different view on an important doctrine. I, for one, found it very difficult to sit under the leadership of a classical dispensationalist pastor - so much to the point that we left for another church. That pastor would not accept my baptism because I was first baptized in a Baptist church at 9 and then later on in a Congregational church that had a Baptist preacher. As far as my Amil view? I was instructed not to discuss it with anyone even if the subject came up or else I would be disciplined for being "divisive" even though it was the "new" doctrine brought in only 150 years ago by Darby that has caused the real division in the church today. I was also told that if I wanted to join the church, I would have to go to "dispensational instruction classes" and agree to that doctrine before being accepted. Today I have a pastor that is pre-mil but does not preach it from the pulpit and hold the view that we all must believe that Christ is coming back and that there will be a resurrection and that we Christians will live with him eternally.
I really wish that I could have found a church that believed as I do about what I firmly believe the scriptures say, but I also believe that we are definately in the "last days" and that scripture does warn us that there will be false doctrine coming into the church at that time.

 

HI OLD REGULAR,

Did you catch my question above about the resurrection?????????????????????

 

Thanks for the excellent post. I did not feel I needed to respond to anything you said since, to me, the essential area of agreement is on the nature of the Church. God is going to bring things to a close as he chooses regardless of our particular beliefs.

Your last statement "hits the nail on the head". The doctrine of eschatology has never been a matter of fellowship in most denominations, certainly not in the Baptist Churches but many dispensationalists have made it so.

On this forum I have mentioned a number of times the book, The Meaning of the Millennium edited by Robert Clouse. In the book different authors present their views of the millennium and the remaining three respond. In his response to dispensationalist Herman Hoyt, George Eldon Ladd , a historic premillennialist makes the following observation [page 93].

Hoyt's essay reflects the major problem in the discussion of the millennium. Several times he contrasts nondispensational views with his own, which he labels "the biblical view" [pages 69, 70, 84]. If he is correct then the other views, including my own are "unbiblical" or even heretical. This is the reason that over the years there has been little creative dialogue between dispensationalists and other schools of prophetic interpretation.

I believe that we have all seen ample evidence on this forum that Ladd "hits the nail on the head".

By the way if you should read this book you would see that Ladd and Hoekema [amillennialist] are remarkably close in their interpretation of "last things" with the exception of Revelation 20:6.

 

Whomever: //3) What verse, pray tell, did you get 99% and 1% from?//

Doesn't matter. The total is 100%. If you can find the 99%
OR the 1, then you can find the other figure.
Take the 1/3rd s and the 1/2s and add them together,
you get 98-99%. It is a Tribulation Period, not a Sunday
School Picnic. Jesus said ;in Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611 Edition):

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since
the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should
no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.

The elect are in heaven pleading face-to-face with Jesus.
No, this "great tribulation" is NOT 1/3 of human history but
the worse thing that ever happens on earth.

Whomever: //You're in the tribulation period - this is "hell on earth!"//

Tee hee. maybe you haven't had enough tribulation to know?
BTW, Brother Dr Bob is dying from the sole of his feet up
(the process will be complete long before the top of the head,
probably will be complete at the crouch. So yes, he knows
about tribulation the condition.) to bad we are talking about
Tribulation, the time period. And the period is known: Daniel's
70th week: the 7-year "Day of the Lord" (not to be confused
with the 1,000 'day of the Lord' or the 8-hour workday 'day of the
Lord').

 

Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean concerning the "first resurrection of the deceased Saints though?" I'm not sure we're in agreement with this. Are you saying that there are two resurrections? One already occuring at the resurrection of Christ and the next one upon his Second Coming? If so, could you provide scripture for that?

Thanks! </font>[/QUOTE]Covenant, the post is rather long but you asked for it. This was material I prepared when I taught the Book of Revelation some years back.

The First Resurrection

Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It must be acknowledged that the above passage is very difficult to interpret. This passage is the only place in the New Testament where the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, popularly called ‘the millennial reign’, is mentioned and gives rise to the various views of the millennial kingdom.

In beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic, that it teaches two resurrections, a ‘first resurrection’ is mentioned directly, a second resurrection is implied. The ‘first resurrection’ occurs prior to the beginning of a ‘one thousand year’ period in which Jesus Christ reigns; the second resurrection occurs at the end of the ‘one thousand year’ reign.

However, if we are to clearly understand this passage we must first understand what the Apostle sees.

First John sees thrones. These thrones are occupied but their occupants are not identified. Now we may conclude without doubt that these thrones represent power and those who occupy them have power, the power to judge.

Second John sees souls, the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Note that he does not see bodies but souls. Should one ask how John sees souls, recall that this is a vision, John sees what God chooses. Now it is true that in Scripture the word soul is often used to refer to living people, for example: in Acts 2:41 three thousand souls were added to the church, in Acts 27:37 there were three hundred and seventy six souls on the ship carrying Paul to Rome. In these passages souls is used as a figure on speech. However the context in Revelation 20:4 is different in that the word souls is not used as a figure of speech but refers to distinct entities apart from their associated physical bodies, i.e., the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. The souls that John sees are of those of deceased Saints. In Revelation 6:9-11 the Apostle John also writes of the souls of deceased believers as distinct entities apart from their associated physical bodies.

1. that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
2. and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The passage reads as if John were speaking of only one group of people with multiple descriptions. However, since those beheaded for the witness of Jesus are included in those which had not worshipped the beast it is likely that he is describing all Saints of God.

We now know what John reportedly saw. In order to further understand what John is teaching in Revelation 20:4-6 we must now determine :

1. Who is in control, who is reigning on earth and throughout creation at the present time, Jesus Christ or Satan? If Jesus Christ is not reigning now when does that reign begin?
2. What is the First Resurrection?
3. Who are those who have part in the First Resurrection


1. Scripture is abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is in control now, is reigning now.

Ephesians 1:20-22, KJV
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,

In this passages it is made abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is reigning now, both on earth and throughout His creation. The Apostle Paul tells us that God the Father: hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church.

Who is reigning with Him? The Apostle John sees souls, not resurrected bodies, and these souls are reigning with Jesus Christ. The souls that John sees are those of the Saints who have already died and are currently in the presence of and reigning with God the Son. That reign will extend until Jesus Christ returns to the earth in power and glory, symbolically represented by the ‘one thousand years’, an extended but definite period of time.


2. What does Scripture mean when it speaks of the ‘first resurrection’?

If we search the Scriptures, in fact if we search secular history, we will read of only one person who died and came to life never to die again. That person was Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23. That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. It is true that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, records accounts of people being raised from the dead:

1. The son of the widow of Zarephath restored to life by the prophet Elijah[1 Kings 17:22].
2. The son of the Shunammite woman restored to life by the prophet Elisha[2 Kings 4:35]..
3. The dead man restored to life at the touch of Elisha’s bones [2 Kings 13:21].
4. Jairus’ daughter restored to life by Jesus Christ [Matthew 9:25, Mark 5:22].
5. The son of the widow of Nain restored to life by Jesus Christ [Luke 7:15].
6. Lazarus of Bethany restored to life by Jesus Christ [John 11:44].
7. The disciple Tabitha, or Dorcas, of Joppa [Acts 9:40] was restored to life by the Apostle Peter.
8. The young man Eutychus [Acts 20:9-12] was restored to life by the Apostle Paul.

Although Scripture is silent about the further lives of these people, they did not have a resurrection body like that of Jesus Christ and they all died again consistent with Paul’s statement to King Agrippa. It is also true that Matthew 27:52,53 states that:

Matthew 27:52,53, KJV
52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

However, there is absolutely no indication in Scripture that these Saints possessed a resurrection body like that of Jesus Christ and that they ascended to heaven. It is my belief that these bodies returned to the grave to await the general resurrection. This interpretation is supported by the following Scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:23, KJV
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What is the significance of the resurrection of Jesus Christ to the redemption of man and what does John mean when he writes: This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power. Note that we read here the fifth of seven blessings promised in the book of Revelation to the Saints of God.

The Apostle Paul addresses the significance of the resurrection in his letter to the church at Corinth.

1 Corinthians 15:17,18, KJV
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the ground of the ‘new birth’ [that which is spiritually dead is made alive] and is the surety of the bodily resurrection of the believer. Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ there is no hope for the “believer’, we are yet in our sins and those who are dead have perished. It is only because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ that John can speak of those souls who sit on thrones. His resurrection validates the teaching that believers have passed from spiritual death into eternal life [John 3:16, 5:25, 11:25], who upon physical death will immediately go into the presence of the Saviour [Luke 16:22, Romans 14:8]. These souls, priests of God and of Christ, live and reign [2 Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 3:21] with Jesus Christ from heaven during this present dispensation on the basis of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Thus the remark: This [is] the first resurrection.


3. Who are those who have part in the first resurrection; why are they blessed and holy?

As noted above Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been regenerated, who have been rescued from spiritual death, through the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ. The Apostle John records the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who have part in the first resurrection as follows :

John 5:24-26, KJV
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 11:25, KJV
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

In these passages the Lord is, in effect, teaching the rebirth, the spiritual resurrection, of the believer. The soul that undergoes this ‘rebirth’ can never die, will never experience the ‘second death’. There are some who believe that this spiritual rebirth is the ‘first’ resurrection indicated in Revelation 20:4-6. However, this interpretation does not satisfy the content of the passage. The spiritual rebirth is the an event that takes place during this life of those who are chosen to salvation.

I say again: Those who have part in the ‘first’ resurrection are the elect of God, those who are redeemed to Him through faith in resurrected Saviour. Blessed and holy indeed are those who have part in the first resurrection. Blessed because they are heirs and joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17], an inheritance that includes eternal life. Holy through of the righteousness imputed to them through Jesus Christ. They have been set apart, sanctified, through the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:11]. Over these the second death has no power, rather theirs is life eternal [John 3:14-16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23].

The Apostle Paul writes of the spiritual resurrection, regeneration, or spiritual rebirth, as follows:

Ephesians 2:4-7, KJV
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

When we were ‘dead in sins’, spiritually dead, God made us alive together with Jesus Christ and raised us up to sit with Him in heavenly places, a spiritual resurrection. There is a sense in which the believer now sits in heavenly places with the Saviour, that is, the spiritual communion between the believer and the Father through Jesus Christ . This promise is further realized in the death of the believer and will be fully realized when redemption is complete with the resurrection of the body. However in the meantime while the deceased saints await the resurrection of the body John tells us: Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The view of Philip Edgecumbe Hughes [The Book of Revelation, page 214] is similar to that presented above though much more eloquent:

“In the whole of the New Testament there is only one resurrection of such central importance that it qualifies without rival to be designated the first resurrection, and that is the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead. This particular resurrection, indeed, is determinative of the general or second resurrection. The relation of the first to the second resurrection is that of the firstfruits to the full harvest, for, as St. Paul affirms, Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [1 Corinthians 15:20]. The supreme significance of this resurrection impels the apostle to insist that if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain . . . and you are still in your sins [1 Corinthians 15:14, 17]. The unique bond between the first resurrection and the person of the incarnate Son is that of identity, so much so that he declared of himself: I am the resurrection and the life: he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die [John. 11:25].

This is the first resurrection in which the Christian believer has a part because through its power, even though he died, he in soul lives and reigns with the incarnate Son who is now risen, ascended, and glorified. The first resurrection of which he partakes is not in himself but in Christ. His participation is entirely due to his union with Christ, and his union with Christ is a reality because the human nature which the Son took to himself in the incarnation is one with the human nature of those he came to redeem. Their living and reigning with him is interpreted by their incorporation into him. What happened to him happened to our human nature. His rising is our rising; his ascending is our ascending; his glorification is our glorification. Hence St. Paul's assertion that even when we were dead through our trespasses God made us alive together with Christ ... and raised us up with him and made us sit with him in the heavenly places [Ephesians 2:5f.]. And so it is that in this period between the first resurrection and the second resurrection the souls of those who have died in the Lord [Revelation 14:13] live and reign with him, precisely because they have a part in the first resurrection, which is not their resurrection but the true bodily resurrection of the incarnate Son.”

The Apostle Paul aptly clarifies the significance of the first and second resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15:16-26. Note that though Paul is speaking specifically about the Saints, the resurrection of the unsaved is implied in Verses 24-26.

We noted at the beginning of the discussion of Revelation 20:4-6 that the passage teaches, or implies, two resurrections. It has been demonstrated above that the ‘first resurrection’, and the only resurrection to date, is that of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection, though not so called, is the general resurrection of all the dead, both the saved and the unsaved [John 5:28, 29], that will occur when Jesus Christ returns in power and glory as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There are differing interpretations of Revelation 20:4-6, however, any interpretation of this passage must be such that it does not conflict with other Scripture, in particular John 5:28, 29 in which a literal interpretation is indicated [i.e., is not written in symbolic or apocalyptic language] as discussed below.

John also tells us But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Who are the rest of the dead? John has been speaking of the souls of those who will reign with Jesus Christ. The rest of the dead are those who died in Adam [Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22] and who have not been redeemed to God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Though some of these may be physically alive they are spiritually dead, dead in sin, unless and until they are made alive in Jesus Christ [John 5:24, 25; Ephesians 2:1-6]. At the return of the Lord in power and glory these dead will be judged before the Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15].

The most clear and most significant passage in all of Scripture regarding the general resurrection is a teaching by the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally. The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age.

To summarize the above discussion we note that Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only person to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are those who have been born again [John 3:7], that is, undergone spiritual resurrection [John 5:25] through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ [John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 10:9]. The second resurrection will be include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. It follows then that only those who have been born again, who have part in the first resurrection can be considered belessed and holy [Revelation 20:6, KJV]. Those who do not have part in the first resurrection, those who through unbelief have rejected Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death, stand condemned before God and will experience the second death.

 

Old Regular,

Thanks for the encouragement. It's nice to be affirmed.

I have the above mentioned book. It has been awhile since I read it. Interesting comment about Rev. 20:6.

I believe a healthy church is one where these views can be discussed with charity, knowing that the essential eschatalogy is: Jesus is coming again, there is a resurrection, and believers will be with God forever.

Thanks for the warm fuzzies!

 

Here is the Biblical view of Resurrections.
It does't agree with non-dispensational
resurrection theories stated above.
I wrote it back two years between presidential
elections when we wanted to send a Republican
majority back to the national house of
representatives. The lead of the Republicans
in the house wrote a book showing the
Republican viewpoint "Contract With America"

"Goy" is a derisive Jewish term for gentiles.
I am a gentile.

--------------------------------
\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
---------------------------------------------

Please note this post is an evangelical post.
I've never seen an a-mill evangelical post.
Will i ever get to see one?

 

Old Regular,

Enjoyed your explanation of the first resurrection/second resurrection. Your reason for the explanation is that John 5:28-29 requires this understanding if interpreted literally, that is, a general resurrection in the same hour.

However, "hora" in Greek does not always mean a 60 minute hour.

w[ra noun nom fem sing

[UBS] w[ra, aj f moment, instant, occasion; time, short indefinite period of time; hour of the day (i. e. a twelfth part of the period between sunrise and sunset, sometimes longer and sometimes shorter than 60 minutes); w[ra pollh, late (Mk 6.35)

It can simply mean time. This is why the NIV of John 5:28 translates hora as time.

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

A literal understanding, therefore, no longer requires a general resurrection. A time is coming when all who are dead will be raised. But how does this take place?

The NASB puts it this way:

NAU John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

This certainly can allow for two separate resurrections as indicated by Rev. 20:5.

So the difficulty presented by John 5:28-29 for two resurrections is not a difficulty after all.

A literal reading of Rev. 20 does indicate that the first resurrection takes place at Christ's second coming - the resurrection of the Saints; and the second resurrection after the thousdand years - the resurrection of unbelievers at the Great White Throne judgment. This agrees with the Greek text of John 5:28-29.

 

In the interest of saving space I deleted some information from my post on the First Resurrection including the following:

The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word wra [hora, pronounced ho'-rah] and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:

1. a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a. of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2. the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
3. a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
4. any definite time, point of time, moment

Passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word ‘hora’ obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

Matthew 8:13* And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour &lt;5610&gt;.
Matthew 9:22* But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour &lt;5610&gt;.
Matthew 10:19* But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour &lt;5610&gt; what ye shall speak.

Matthew 15:28* Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour &lt;5610&gt;.
Matthew 17:18* And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour &lt;5610&gt;.

Matthew 20:3* And he went out about the third hour &lt;5610&gt;, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
Matthew 20:5* Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour &lt;5610&gt;, and did likewise.
Matthew 20:6* And about the eleventh hour &lt;5610&gt; he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
Matthew 20:9* And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour &lt;5610&gt;, they received every man a penny.
Matthew 20:12* Saying, These last have wrought but one hour &lt;5610&gt;, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Matthew 24:36* But of that day and hour &lt;5610&gt; knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:42* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour &lt;5610&gt; your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:44* Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour &lt;5610&gt; as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 24:50* The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour &lt;5610&gt; that he is not aware of,
Matthew 25:13* Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour &lt;5610&gt; wherein the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 26:40, KJV
40. And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

Matthew 26:45* Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour &lt;5610&gt; is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Matthew 26:55* In that same hour &lt;5610&gt; said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

Matthew 27:45, KJV
45. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Matthew 27:46* And about the ninth hour &lt;5610&gt; Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 6:35* And when the day &lt;5610&gt; was now far spent, his disciples came unto him, and said, This is a desert place, and now the time &lt;5610&gt; is far passed:
Mark 11:11* And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide &lt;5610&gt; was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
Mark 13:11* But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour &lt;5610&gt;, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mark 13:32* But of that day and that hour &lt;5610&gt; knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mark 14:35* And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour &lt;5610&gt; might pass from him.
Mark 14:37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour &lt;5610&gt;?


Mark14:41* And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour &lt;5610&gt; is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mark 15:25* And it was the third hour &lt;5610&gt;, and they crucified him.
Mark 15:33* And when the sixth hour &lt;5610&gt; was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour &lt;5610&gt;.
Mark 15:34* And at the ninth hour &lt;5610&gt; Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Luke 2:38* And she coming in that instant &lt;5610&gt; gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
Luke 7:21 And in that same hour &lt;5610&gt; he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
Luke 10:21* In that hour &lt;5610&gt; Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Luke 12:12* For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour &lt;5610&gt; what ye ought to say.
Luke 12:39* And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour &lt;5610&gt; the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
Luke 12:40* Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour &lt;5610&gt; when ye think not.
Luke 12:46* The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour &lt;5610&gt; when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 14:17* And sent his servant at supper time &lt;5610&gt; to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luke 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour &lt;5610&gt; sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
Luke 22:14* And when the hour &lt;5610&gt; was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luke 22:53* When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour &lt;5610&gt;, and the power of darkness.
Luke 22:59* And about the space of one hour &lt;5610&gt; after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean.
Luke 23:44* And it was about the sixth hour &lt;5610&gt;, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour &lt;5610&gt;.
Luke 24:33* And they rose up the same hour &lt;5610&gt;, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
John 1:39* He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour &lt;5610&gt;.
John 2:4* Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour &lt;5610&gt; is not yet come.
John 4:6* Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour &lt;5610&gt;.
John 4:21* Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour &lt;5610&gt; cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
John 4:23* But the hour &lt;5610&gt; cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:52* Then enquired he of them the hour &lt;5610&gt; when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour &lt;5610&gt; the fever left him.
John 4:53* So the father knew that it was at the same hour &lt;5610&gt;, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

John 7:30* Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour &lt;5610&gt; was not yet come.
John 8:20* These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour &lt;5610&gt; was not yet come.
John 11:9* Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours &lt;5610&gt; in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
John 12:23* And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour &lt;5610&gt; is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
John 12:27* Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour &lt;5610&gt;: but for this cause came I unto this hour &lt;5610&gt;.
John 13:1* Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour &lt;5610&gt; was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
John 16:21* A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour &lt;5610&gt; is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

John 16:32* Behold, the hour &lt;5610&gt; cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
John 17:1* These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour &lt;5610&gt; is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
John 19:14* And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour &lt;5610&gt;: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
John 19:27* Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour &lt;5610&gt; that disciple took her unto his own home.
Acts 2:15* For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour &lt;5610&gt; of the day.
Acts 3:1* Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour &lt;5610&gt; of prayer, being the ninth hour.
Acts 5:7* And it was about the space of three hours &lt;5610&gt; after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Acts 10:3* He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour &lt;5610&gt; of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Acts 10:9* On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour &lt;5610&gt;:
Acts 10:30* And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour &lt;5610&gt;; and at the ninth hour &lt;5610&gt; I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

Acts 16:18* And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour &lt;5610&gt;.
Acts 16:33* And he took them the same hour &lt;5610&gt; of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Acts 19:34* But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours &lt;5610&gt; cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
Acts 22:13* Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour &lt;5610&gt; I looked up upon him.
Acts 23:23* And he called unto him two centurions, saying, Make ready two hundred soldiers to go to Caesarea, and horsemen threescore and ten, and spearmen two hundred, at the third hour &lt;5610&gt; of the night;

1Corinthians 4:11* Even unto this present hour &lt;5610&gt; we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Corinthians 15:30* And why stand we in jeopardy every hour &lt;5610&gt;?
1Corinthians 7:8* For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season &lt;5610&gt;.
Ga 2:5* To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour &lt;5610&gt;; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Re 3:3* Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour &lt;5610&gt; I will come upon thee.

Re 9:15* And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour &lt;5610&gt;, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Re 11:13* And the same hour &lt;5610&gt; was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Re 14:7* Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour &lt;5610&gt; of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Re 14:7* Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour &lt;5610&gt; of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment.[See Lumpkin's Baptist Confessions of Faith]

 

From the KJV1769 probably:

Mark 6:35* And when the day &lt;5610&gt; was now far spent, his disciples came unto him, and said, This is a desert place, and now the time &lt;5610&gt; is far passed:


Mark 13:11* But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour &lt;5610&gt;, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Did ed say this earlier?

In God's economy:
1 hour = 1 day.

Yep, STRONGS agrees:
1 hour (5610) = 1 day (5610)

 

Ed as usual your posts are without meaning. However, that being said you still confirm the argument that I have made along and make in the above post. The resurrection described in John 5:28, 29 is the general resurrection of both the just and the unjust and occurs in a brief specific period of time. Whether it is an hour or a day is irrelevant. It certainly is not 1007 years. If you had looked a little further you would have seen that the word hora. translated hour, was also used in relation to the word day, indicating that the hour could be 60 minutes. For example Matthew 24:36 But of that day &lt;2250&gt; and hour&lt;5610&gt; knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

As far as time is concerned God could raise all the dead in 60 seconds, so crow on Ed, crow on!

 

To Ed Edwards, covenant, and OldRegular.

My apologies to you EdE. It was not my intention to attribute what I believed to be OldRegular’s original chain of events, perhaps winding up his reply on a humorous note. Sorry OldR. I was giving you credit for, as covenant says, intelligent make-up.

As you can see I got to the party late, and just too many messages to read so I started at the end (at that time) and saw our friend OldRegular. I read one of your posts on the “Rapture” thread and saw you were also trying to straighten out OldR. At least he believes you are cleaver, which is probably better than he thinks of me.

Thanks for the heads up cov……or should that be feet up……..or foot in mouth?

Hey guys, been posting on another board and not yet used to the workings of this software program yet. Guess will have to learn to read a little faster as some posts give no reference to who a reply is meant for, and I don’t believe I’m on the computer for as long periods of time as y’all.

 

Actually I am still posting on the rapture thread.

Nothing there for me for some time after I posted.