Does God know?

Two things:

God MUST love that which is most worthy of love supremely.

It would be a sin for God to love man more than for God to love God.

God must be God's primary motive for all that God does.

God cannot have man as a primary motive- that would be blasphemy against God. God CANNOT commit blasphemy against God.

God must do all things for the highest and noblest of motives. The highest and noblest reason to do anything is for God.

Your theology misses it here. Your theology can have the well being of MAN as the primary motive. This CANNOT be. The well being of man is not the highest and noblest endeavor in the universe.

God CANNOT therefore have as his primary motive the good of man. He cannot- not and remain God. God is highest and holiest by definition and he must pursue that which is highest and holiest by definition. God must therefore pursue God.

Just like it is right for all creatures to pursue God's glory first and foremost it is also right for God to pursue god's glory first and foremost.

God CANNOT pursue the well being of man first and foremost.

When you say God's primary motive is love for man you are putting man's well being and good as the highest and noblest endeavor in the universe.

I know you don't mean to do this, and I think you have not thought through this far the logical implications of saying God's love for man is his primary motive, but it really is at it's core VERY man centered.

If you want God's primary motive to be love- it fits; but it must be his love for himself.

He loves us for himself. He dies for us for himself.

The Bible says this clearly in Ephesians 2 "That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

He is interested in showing his grace.

That is why he ordained the fall.

That is one. I'll post two next.

 

Secondly, God's omnipotence demands that he ordained and willed the fall.

Omnipotence says that God is ALL powerful. That means that ALL power is his. There is no power that exists that is not his.

The power a rose utilizes to open against the morning sun is God's power. God opens the rose.

The power to lift the plump bumble bee off the earth by tiny wings is God's power. God flies the bumble bee.

The power to contract the human arm is God's power. God contracts the human arm.

The power to chew and consume and digest food is God's power. God is masticating the food for the human. It is his power that tightens the jaw muscles, his power that breaks down the food, his power that enables peristalsis carrying the food to the belly, etc...

When Adam contracted the arm that brought the forbidden fruit to his own mouth- God contracted that arm. God powered the biceps that brought the forbidden fruit to the mouth of Adam.

When Adam bit into that fruit God flexed the jaw muscles.

Omnipotence demands that God is the ultimate cause behind everything.

Scripture says, In him we live and MOVE and have our being.

Scripture says, "He is before all things and by HIM ALL THINGS consist."

Scripture says, "For OF him and THROUGH him and TO him are ALL THINGS."

There is nothing that takes place that is not OF him.

No action that is not powered BY him.

There is no event that does not exist THROUGH him.

NONE.

God is all powerful and in COMPLETE control not just OVER all things but OF all things and IN all things.

That is the one true God.

 

I mean this respectfully, but this (bolded portion) makes absolutely no sense to me. I am NOT calling you stupid, just that it makes NO sense to ME.

 

To Luke (Still having problems learning this cut paste quote thingy)

 

How do you reconcile this with Christ not knowing the day or the hour of His return?

 

I guess that's the problem. It makes perfect sense to most Calvinists.

Maybe that's the issue. Maybe there is some force that keeps you from being able to see it. There was for me for a long time.

That God must love God supremely seems extraordinarily plain and simple to me.

For him to have as his motive that which is less than the highest and holiest and noblest is for him NOT to be God.

God by definition MUST be motivated to do whatever he does by that motive which is highest.

The highest motive for anything is God.


When God could swear by no greater he swore by himself.

God is the greatest. He is the greatest motive for anything we do.

Jesus said, "that they may see your good works and glorify your father which is in heaven."

That is the highest and noblest of motives for ANY deed- the glory of God.

It is true for every deed that we perform and it is true for every deed that God performs.

God must build the universe for the highest of motives- his glory.

God must make Adam for the highest of motives- himself.

God must make Lucifer and the serpent and the forbidden fruit for the highest and holiest of motives- his own glory.

To make these things for less than the highest motive is for him to not be GOD.

God must ALWAYS do what he does for the best reasons. The best reasons is the glory of God.

God ordained the fall for the highest and holiest of motives- the glory of God.

God must love himself supremely because it is great blasphemy to love something more than God.

 

In short-- the time that these words were spoken, Christ was in his earthly ministry voluntarily submitting his omniscience to the will of the Father. Are there things that Christ did not know while walking the earth? Yes, but this only seems to be the case b/c he choose to limit himself to the will of the Father. I don’t know if I’d personally use this as an example of God not knowing something—but Jesus is in fact God & during his earthly ministry (as you have just pointed out)—there were certain things he did not know—but even in this example—the Father knew—so God the Father did know. I guess another question that could be posed is—did the Son know everything again once he returned to glory with the Father—I’d say yes—but maybe others would feel differently.

 

So are you agreeing it is plausible we do not know the extent of how an infinte God deals with His creation within and outside of time? Could God have done with Hezekiah what He did during His earthly ministry?

 

Webdog, great question regarding time and how we understand it. God is getting a bit to "must"y for me to follow any more of Lukes posts at the moment. Although I do appreciate your fervor Luke.:love2:

 

Thanks.

But that God MUST do many things establishes his divinity- it does not diminish it.

You can lie because you are not divine.

You can blaspheme and commit idolatry because you are not divine.

God CANNOT do these things BECAUSE he is divine.

God MUST always do what is right and do it with the highest and holiest of motives.

He MUST do this BECAUSE he is divine.

You don't have to- there is no MUST for you along these lines for the very reason that you are NOT divine.

God bless!

 

I suppose ur referring to the 2 Kings 20 example of Hezekiah being told that he will die—then praying—then not dying until 15 years later. This certainly brings up the topic-- does Gods change his mind—in response to our prayers. Now I will be the first to admit—I have preconceived notions that impact my thinking about this topic—so I’m probably not as open to suggestion as I should be—but I personally don’t see God not knowing something with this example. Either God is all knowing & knew that Hez would respond the way he did—thus moved him to do so. Or even if we allow middle knowledge to exist—God knew the possibility of all options—and still knew what the outcome would be based on the particular choice. Or finally, God did not know—and does not know the future until man makes his choice—which questions His omniscience. The first two I can accept as plausible, the last I cannot. Thus, God still knew the outcome although Hezekiah was required to take action. As far as God dealing with his creation outside of time—God is certainly outside of time—but he also deals with is creation in relation to time. Not sure what u mean by ur last question—so maybe I just misunderstood all u said--& posted all this 4 nothing-lol-

 

Webdog--I think u mean—limit his own knowledge---personally I’d say no—b/c this really questions his eternal omniscience (either He knows all or He doe not)—but this is a personal opinion.

 

Cypress

For a great read on Time. WLC has a book "Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time." Great book, will take me quite a while to digest it, very profound thinking, science and philosophical posturing.

 

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
If God didn't know what Abraham was going to do, there are enormous implications. It means God is not immutable. To not know something, then to know it, is a change.

Since God said he doesn't change (I Sam 15:29), then for him to know something now that he didn't know earlier, would make God a liar. He's not, so we have to look elsewhere for answers.

I don't know that they've had a falling out.

I do know that God says he doesn't change. He also is omniscient. Any statement that seems to say otherwise must be interpreted in the light of the clear scripture.

Are you suggesting that God does change, and is not omniscient?

It is beyond my understanding how Jesus, who knew the thoughts of men, who is one with the Father,who controlled nature itself and death itself, does not know the time of his return. It is also beyond my understanding why God withheld such information from the Son while the Son was in his earthly body--if, in fact, He did.

What do you think, web?

 

This raises a question. If God knows every single detail throughout all of eternity then is it because He ordains it or because He looks down through history?

 

Ben,

I have always believed you to be a thinker, even if we do not agree on a few things. This is why I was surprise to read this post.

Why do you feel like this is God changing his mind? Is this not TWO battles in which TWO promises were given? In each battle, was not God right?

I guess I don't understand your problem with the passage.

 

Well ......it is because he ordained it. But the later really does not change anything other than remove God's glory and give it to man.

 

So you believe that He ordained the fall, sin, all suffering, and every word and deed that has, is, or ever will be done, correct?

 

That is what the Bible teaches.

For of him and through him and to him are all things- Romans 11:36

By Him all things consist- Col 1

God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will- Ephesians 1

Amos 3:6- Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Joseph- "You meant it for evil but GOD MEANT IT for good."

The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.