does mental illness diqualify you from being a leader in the church?

BenW,

Do not think the reference you cited proves that God used Jonah while he was suicidal. This instance occurred after Jonah had preached to Ninevah and there is no record of God using him after this point.

However, Jonah is still a good example, just need to look at a different reference! Jonah 1:12 “And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.” I would have to say that this was not only evidence of suicidal thoughts, but at least an indirect suicide attempt! AND, God did use him after this!

Thanks!

 

OldReg,

"Straight out of the dark ages..."

DITTO!!!

IMO, not very far from the idea that depression, etc, is caused by demon possession. (Though I do not rule that out in some cases.) I think that some classic examples of MPD could very well be possession.

I side with you in your position that struggles with emotional issues DO NOT disqualify from ministry, again, King David as my case in point.

Would be curious to know if any of the ones holding such a position have had any college or grad training in this area. Did quite a bit of independent research in undergrad work in my psych minor. Also, my grad degree is in Biblical Counseling. For about 6 years served as an associate pastor where I spent about 15-20 hours a week in counseling sessions with all ages and for a great variety of issues. Just curious as to the qualifications of those labeling depression as a "spiritual problem". Not trying to get uppity here, or to attack others with different positions, just curious as to what qualifies them to make such a call.

 

rj

Thank God we have found something we agree on. That being said I suspect that we would agree on much more than we would disagree.

 

Notice, rj, I said Depression CAN be caused by spiritual problems. No where did I say always and I never said a person being treated for depression couldn't pastor. That's why I again 'bolded' the actual mental illnesses. There is a VAST difference between a paranoid schizophrenic and someone with clinical depression. I pointed out that one of our church leaders is being successfully treated for depression and our church has stood behind them the last few years.

 

Diane,

Yep, I noticed the all caps CAN in your post. And yes, there is certainly a major difference in a psychotic illness and a neurotic illness. As I recall from Ab Psych, many with a neurotic condition can generally function at a relatively normal level. Was not aiming at you with my comment, but seems like there has been some undertone in the discussion that mental illness in general is a ministry (full time pastor) breaker.

 

OldReg,

I am sure there is much we agree on. In fact, as noted on another thread, the eschatology issue is not even a significant factor in our church membership policy.

 

Bipolar is NOT also known as manic depression. Depression is one part of the diagnosis. And, yes, it is treatable to the extent it can be managed. There is no cure as of yet. Praise God that he gives us what we need to discover solutions to our afflictions!

 

I would be interested in hearing where you attended for your grad degree and what training was offered...What methods you use...type of classes you have paid for. I almost went that route at Criswell college but went for a social work degree instead.

I am equally curious.

 

Christianbsw,

Bipolar WAS known as Manic-Depressive. Cannot recall if the designation was changed with DSM III or DSM IV.

Grad Degree in B.C. was from Luther Rice Seminary while still in Jax, FL. Dept Head was a grad of Narramore's school (Rosemead?) and a clinical psychologist. Pretty much covered the gamut of classes from Group PT (Yalom) to Abnormal. Did some group work in a Christian High School setting with quite satisfactory results. That degree was not intended to be a terminal degree, but rather one that I picked in completion of an M.Div. Still have not completed the M.Div. but probably have 70 to 80 hours post grad. to best of my recollection.

Re methods... Quite a blend! But have probably been most influenced by Crabb and Allender, been to several of his/their workshops (sp?).

 

How about Jonah?

Jonah 4:3 "Please kill me Lord; I'd rather be dead than alive when nothing that I told them happens".

Johnah 4:8 "Then when the sun was hot God ordered a scorching east wind to blow on Jonah, and the sun beat down upon his head until he grew faint and wished to die. For he said, Death is better than this!" </font>[/QUOTE]But the issue is not if God can use someone with mental problems, but whether someone with mental illness should be a leader in the church. So the Jonah example, whether we think he was suicidal or not, does not apply.

 

I don't think depression is a mental illness unless it's really severe. And if it's that severe, then I don't see how someone with a severe case could or should be a leader.

I don't think anyone with schizophrenia could be a church leader. The people with schizophrenia that I've come across have very limited social skills and tend to be unable to relate to people. They also tend to be obsessive or compulsive about things and get caught up in their own world.

In general, if the mental illness is a serious or severe condition, I would say that no one with such a mental illness should be a church leader.

Medication only helps if the person keeps taking it. When a bipolar person feels good, they often stop taking their medication and everthing quickly falls apart.

 

Sounds like quite an interesting experience! Did you enjoy the course line? What methods do you prefer while working with the youngsters? How much exposure did you have to CBT? Psychopharm?

DISCLAIMER: To those who have been reading the posts, utilizing the DSM is very serious. The most current is the DSM-IV-TR. Professionals will not access earlier versions to reference diagnosis because of important changes. Those without adequate training should not be diagnosing mental illness. If someone is experiencing detrimental or debilitating symptoms, they should consult their physician immediately!

 

manic-depressive
Of, relating to, or having bipolar disorder.

A person who has bipolar disorder.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I minored in Psych in college and then worked as a Psych Tech for a number of years in the 1970's. Manic Depressive had a name change in the last decade to Bi-Polar. I worked with many manic depressive and schizophrenic's during that time.

 

Diane,

Good input, but the nomenclature shift from M-D to B-P has been at least15 years! My how time flies!

And, as a Psych Tech you probably saw more severe cases of MD/BP. Certainly the more extreme the case, the less a person is able to function outside of an institution. To best of my recollection, schizophrenia has always been classed as a psychotic condition. For those without a background in psychology, a neurotic condition does not generally require institutionalization, while a psychotic condition generally does. A severe neurotic issue is often treated by temporary hospitalization and then a return to relatively normal life under the care and oversight of qualified professionals.

I have seen people with severe psychotic episodes of depression return to relatively normal life after several courses of ECT and with continuing pharmacologic maintenance. The situation with which I am most familiar was initiated/aggravated by numerous TIAs in the mood affective areas of the frontal lobes.

Diane, your caveat that it CAN be a spiritual problem was an important concession.

If we are arguing whether or not a mental/psychological problem CAN sometimes disqualify a person from ministry, there is no argument. If we are arguing that any episode of depression or anxiety, etc, NECESSARILY disqualifies one from serving as a Pastor, I will argue till the cows come home!

If it is a question of degree, it would seem that the determination would most likely be up to the leadership of each individual congregation. I have no problem with that, either.

My biggest complaint is against others who have little training or experience in these matters who make a blanket assertion that a bout with depression disqualifies a man from the pastorate. Don’t think you said that.

 

Please! Regardless of the clinical definitions, we all pretty much can see whether or not a man is in his right mind. Judgment has been given to the church, not clinicians, concerning the qualification of one for the ministry.

 

Christian, if you were to meet our Church leader being treated, 3 years now, for Clincal Depression, you'd never guess that he has a problem or that he uses medication. He's also had no more times that he needed to 'take off' and 'get better'.

Yes.... the people I dealt with were inpatients and many had spent most of the lives in the private hospital. I assisted, two days a week, with Electro Shock Therapy.

 

I'm very happy for them. Praise be to God! I am not certain I ever said anything to the contrary.