eeeks, Paul Crouch..

This reminds me of a true story in India. Three little girls were Christians and wanted to go to church, but a rapidly flowing river blocked their path. They prayed to the Lord that He would help them cross safely. They had enough faith they stepped off into the river.

They died.

Point being is that we cannot demand of God to do anything we want Him to. It may be against His will to heal someone. They may be sick for the better good of His kingdom.

You are dealing with promises made to an earlier generation and accepting those promises as your own.

This is like the disputed end of Mark. If indeed it is part of the canon, people today would be taking promises, again, not made to them. Paul was bitten by a snake, shook it off and didn't die.

During those early Christians, miracles were used to develop a basic understanding that Jesus was indeed God. Today, we do not need this to prove He is God because it was recorded for us in the Bible.

NOW, Do NOT get me wrong. God can and does heal people through prayer. But, just because He does not may have nothing to do with the faith of the person praying. Otherwise, those groups that will not take their kids to doctors would not have the kids dying on them all of the time.

Man WILL die. If he has enough faith, according to your theory, he could live forever. So, in your opinion he must have a slip in faith right before death.

It is very dangerous to demand that God do something. This is the reason we ask Him to only do it if it within His will. If this sounds like a lack of faith it is not. If God wants to heal that person, He will, if it is against His will, then He may not. We cannot see the overall picture of God's Kingdom.

 

This reminds me of a true story in India. Three little girls were Christians and wanted to go to church, but a rapidly flowing river blocked their path. They prayed to the Lord that He would help them cross safely. They had enough faith they stepped off into the river.

They died.

Point being is that we cannot demand of God to do anything we want Him to. It may be against His will to heal someone. They may be sick for the better good of His kingdom.

You are dealing with promises made to an earlier generation and accepting those promises as your own.

This is like the disputed end of Mark. If indeed it is part of the canon, people today would be taking promises, again, not made to them. We know that at least the part about snakes is true because Paul was bitten by a snake, shook it off and didn't die. The early Christians could actually work miracles on their own.

If you think TV preachers are doing the "real" thing, then you have a lot to learn about slight of hand on television. It works about the same way as "Crossing Over". All a con.

During those early Christians, miracles were used to develop a basic understanding that Jesus was indeed God. Today, we do not need this to prove He is God because it was recorded for us in the Bible.

NOW, Do NOT get me wrong. God can and does heal people through prayer. But, just because He does not may have nothing to do with the faith of the person praying. Otherwise, those groups that will not take their kids to doctors would not have the kids dying on them all of the time.

I have seen prayers from our church answered and people healed from deadly diseases. Some at the brink of death, including cancer and leukemia. One had a heart problem and it went away the day before surgery. That is a miracle, but then again, many have gone on to be with the Lord. The prayers are not any less faithful.

Man WILL die. If he has enough faith, according to your theory, he could live forever. So, in your opinion he must have a slip in faith right before death.

It is very dangerous to demand that God do something. This is the reason we ask Him to only do it if it within His will. If this sounds like a lack of faith it is not. If God wants to heal that person, He will, if it is against His will, then He may not. We cannot see the overall picture of God's Kingdom. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Another thing, airlines could hire Christians with lots of faith to fly on their planes, guaranteeing the plane will not crash and kill everybody.

You are right, God is not a liar, but who was He talking to in the Bible? You cannot take things out of context. If I had enough faith, could I pray for a million dollars?

Praying for God's will to be done is NOT the same as praying for salvation and the faith for salvation is a promise made to us. But, then the Holy Spirit has to call us, man cannot do it himself.

What is your background? Are you a new Christian? Are you really Baptist? Have you come out of a Pentecostal church?

 

Phillip, aren't you getting a little extreme?

Matt.17
[17] Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
[20] And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.


Heb.11
[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
[4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[11] Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
[13] These all died in faith not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[21] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
[24] Byfaith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
[27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
[28] Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
[29] By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
[30] By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
[31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
[33] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

 

LE, you are confusing the way the Bible teaches faith and the way the WFers teach it. They teach it as a way to get what you want, and they teach that God MUST respond to you when you speak something in faith.

Examples:

1.I want a raise. I speak it that God will give me one and therefore, I should get one.

2. I am feeling sick but by faith, I believe I will not be sick. I speak this by saying something like, "I am not sick." Therefore, God must honor my faith in that and keep me from getting sick.

3. It is considered a sin by WF teachers to admit you are sick, poor, need money, etc. This is considered a lack of faith.

4. If you are sick, it is your lack of faith. If you are poor, it is your lack of faith.

Did you read the story of my friend on the plane, going to her sister's funeral, who was told that her sister died because my friend did not pray with enough faith for her sister to be well? This is what they teach and how they think.

They twist the concept of faith and the words of God and teach that faith is a force. They teach it so that faith becomes a magical way of getting what you want, and if you don't use it, it's your fault for whatever you don't have or whatever illness you have.

Many of the people who leave WF churches, utterly damamged, leave because they were sick or someone in the family died. They think it's their fault. They usually end up leaving Christianity altogether.

 

What I am saying is this. We cannot receive anything from God apart from faith. Wheather it be salvation, filled with the Spirit, healing or anything else. God does answer all prayer according to our faith and if we have enough faith we can be healed or receive a miracle. Now I agree that we cant ask for riches or other things that may not be good for us, but that does not keep us from reaching out in faith for healings or miracles because we shall receive them if we pray by faith. We might not get it until we get to heaven but God answers prayers by faith.
Unfortunately some of the faith teachers out there are extreme but on the only hand Baptist do not use their faith enough.

 

So by this are you saying that if a person who is ill and prays but is not physically healed, the reason is they did not have enough faith? If so you have place God and His power at our beckon and call. He has become a slave to our desire and wants as long as we ask in "faith". That kind of view of God discounts His sovereignty and what He might be doing in someones life through an illness. It also guarantees that either the one asking for healing or God ends up being a failure if the person is not healed. And what about the people who were healed by Jesus in the Scripture who express no faith at all toward Him at all?

Bro Tony

 

You are wrong Marcia. The Word of God says in 1cor12;3 that no man can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Ghost, and Copeland and millions of other Charismatics confess that Jesus is Lord and thus they are brethren. We might not agree with much of their teaching but they are to be loved and served as a member of the body no matter how weak that part may seem to us.

 

Fat Eagle, when the Bible says no one can say it except by the HS, the Bible is talking about acknowledging the true Lord, the true Jesus Christ. I said "Jesus is Lord" BEFORE I was saved -- years before I was saved. But I did not really mean it (see Rom. 10, that confession of the mouth must be made with belief in the heart), and I also did not know the true Lord at the time. He was a fairy tale figure to me but I confessed belief in him. It was not by the HS because I did not have faith in the true Jesus.

You don't seem to realize that one can confess the wrong Lord! I've heard dozens of Mormon missionaries say that Jesus is Lord. So you think they are Christians??? They believe in the wrong Jesus. So their statement is meaningless.

Same thing with those who believe in the Word Faith Jesus. The WF Jesus, as I've pointed out dozens of times, is not the Jesus of the Bible..

We have to look at the teachings about the Lord a person or group is confessing. We don't just take their statement at face value when it is not backed up by belief and/or teachings in the true biblical Jesus.

 

Marcia, you make some excellent points. Unfortunately a lot of people are not listening. And I thought this was a Baptist only forum.

Just as the Jesus of the Mormons is not the Jesus of the Bible so the Jesus of the word-faith teachers is not the Jesus of the Bible. In fact there are some similarities in Mormon and word-faith teaching and I suppose one could throw the Jehovah's Witnesses in there also.

I don't doubt that there are people in the word-faith movement who are saved. However, I have serious doubt about the salvation of the teachers in word-faith such as the Copelands, Hinn, Crouch, Price, and the list goes on and on.

I am reminded of the words of Jude 1:3, 4 [KJV];

3. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Good post, Old Regular.

 

Well, if the person dies, then they have received a complete, perfect healing. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The Bible says "by His stripes we are healed."

 

LE,

While I would agree completely with your statement, you know that is not what fat eagle or the Word Faith people mean when they make their statements of healing. They don't mean or believe that by His stripes one is healed is talking about eternal healing in heaven, but the promise of perfect health here on earth, IF you have enough faith.

Bro Tony

 

I believe exactly what Lady Eagle posted. Your arguement is with God for he said that without faith we cannot please God. He said it and I believe it . It is not sin to have faith or confess healing by faith , after all we had to confess by faith that Jesus Christ is Lord and ask him into our hearts.
We do not always see the manifestations right off as LE said we may not get the total healing until we are face to face with our precious Jesus. But healed none the less for no one can enter heaven sick.
I also believe we all have a appointed time to die and if we pray for healing then God will honor that pray and heal that person but it may be an instant after we die.
We also may have to wait 40 years for something to happen but I still pray by faith for that thing every day.

 

First off you do not believe exactly what LE posted because in your explaination you went further than her statement concerning perfect healing in heaven. Secondly, I have no argument with God, I believe in Him, I trust Him by faith and I believe that without faith it is impossible to please God. I disagree with the WF teachers and apparently you. I don't believe faith is the force to move God, I do not believe God MUST act in accordance with my faith. I do not believe as Hagin taught that "you must have faith in your faith"--that is idolatry. Faith is not getting God to do what I want or hope Him to do. Faith is toward God not to the things of God. I trust God completely, He is Lord and is Sovereign. He does not exist to follow the dictates of my faith.

Bro Tony

 

Lady Eagle

My wife first heard this from her doctor who is a Christian. It is certainly a true statement.

 

What about pore old Apostle Paul. He must have been lacking faith since he was not healed.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

I'm curious about the wrong Jesus. Did another Jesus die on the cross for the sins of the world, or was there just one? Did another Jesus say if we have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, we can move mountains? Did another Jesus raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, cause the lame to walk? Was there another Jesus who was resurrected? Hmmmm.... I always thought there was only one Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I've learned something new here. Hmmm....BTW, I see what verse the Oneness people are taking the word "manifestation" rather than "person" from for the Holy Spirit. It's here:

I Cor 12:[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

I thought only Democrats "parsed" words, LOL, like depending on what the word "is" is.


[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

I'm curious about the wrong Jesus. Did another Jesus die on the cross for the sins of the world, or was there just one? Did another Jesus say if we have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, we can move mountains? Did another Jesus raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, cause the lame to walk? Was there another Jesus who was resurrected? Hmmmm.... I always thought there was only one Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I've learned something new here. Hmmm....BTW, I see what verse the Oneness people are taking the word "manifestation" rather than "person" from for the Holy Spirit. It's here:

I Cor 12:[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

I thought only Democrats "parsed" words, LOL, like depending on what the word "is" is.


[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]If you don't know what is meant by the "wrong Jesus" you need to read what the Mormons, the Jehovah's witnesses, and the word-faith people believe about Jesus and compare their beliefs to Scripture.

 

From the Horse's Mouth from the Horse and not just about the Horse from a non-Horse:

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