Free Grace theology?

With all due respect, bapmom, this is a severe misrepresentation.

Free grace theology speaks about holiness, sanctification, temporal and future accountability, temporal child-discipline, assurance, Christian life motivations, personal devotion to Christ.

Bapmom, let us discuss these things. You seem to have a problem with Free Grace theology.

Tell me a specific problem you have with it. Tell me the one that you find most distressing to you, and we'll see if we can't civilly discuss it.

I am afraid that if you have read any of Zane Hodges or Bob Wilkin's books on Free Grace theology, you would not get the impression of it that you have.

Have a blessed day,

Antonio

 

Actually Antonio,

I haven't read either of those authors, and Im not so sure that I do have a problem with free grace.


I want to be sure to understand its points before I say either way, but I would define free grace as a salvation that does not need to be worked for.

There will be fruit in the believer's lives, but I cannot guarantee the form of that fruit in anyone else's life, nor the time span that it will take for my life to bear fruit.

Am I being too simplistic? Is there more to it than that?

 

There are so many different viewpoints on these boards, and so many different names for all of them, that just because the term "free grace" is one on the surface that I would agree with, I find myself needing to be sure before I stand by it.

 

James 2:14-18


14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You are confusing free grace with Free Grace theology. Free Grace theology is a modern system of beliefs and interpretations of the Bible that are absolutely heretical and which were popularized several years ago by Zane Hodges and a very small handful of others in the Grace Evangelical Society, the most notable of which are probably Joseph Dillow and Bob Wilkin’s. This is not a discussion of whether or not works are necessary for salvation—that is an entirely different subject, but a very complex and difficult subject because it has to do with distinguishing between works of the Law and good works, a distinction which in most passages in the Bible is easy to make, but there are passages in the Bible where the distinction is subject to debate. It is also a difficult subject because it has to do with distinguishing justification from salvation. This present discussion is a discussion of the theology of Zane Hodges and the Grace Evangelical Society and the ultra-radical Joey Faust. Free Grace theology is also known as Millennial Exclusion theology and Millennial Punishment theology.

For a brief introduction to this heresy, read the article at,

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/inherit.htm

 

Call me old fashioned, but I believe you should hear both sides of an argument, bapmom. Here is one article by my ultra-radical pastor that explains a bit about what we believe as far as missing the millennial kingdom goes.
http://www.kingdombaptist.org/article614.cfm

 

According to Free Grace theology, many passages in the Bible that speak of the “kingdom of God” are speaking of a future millennial kingdom. This interpretation defies common sense because the concept of a future millennial kingdom was unknown to the persons to whom Jesus was speaking in the gospels and it was unknown to the Christians to whom the epistles were written. Most certainly, therefore, if a future millennial kingdom was being spoken of, this would have been specifically explained so that the meaning would be understood. The millennial reign of Christ is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible except for the Revelation, beginning in chapter 20.

Furthermore, the kingdom of God has been the subject of intense study my many theologians and a number of volumes have been published that deal exclusively with that subject. Some of the better studies are found in the following volumes,

Baughman, Ray E.. The Kingdom of God Visualized. Moody Press, 1972.

Beasley-Murray, G. R. Jesus and the Kingdom of God. William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1986.

Bright, John. The Kingdom of God. Abingdon-Cokesbury Press, 1953.

Bruce, Alexander Balmain. The Kingdom of God. T. & T. Clark, 1893.

Ladd, George Eldon. Jesus and the Kingdom. Word Books, 1964.

Peters, George N. H. The Theocratic Kingdom. Funk and Wagnall, 1884. 2,175 pages!

Joey Faust has only a high school education. In my last conversation with him, he told me that he has not completed any college courses at all.

The following Scriptures should be very carefully and prayerfully read and studied:

Matt. 6:33. "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

Matt. 12:28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Matt. 19:24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Matt. 21:31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They *said, "The latter." Jesus *said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax-gatherers and harlots will get into the kingdom of God before you.

Matt. 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.

Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables,

Mark 4:26 And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil;

Mark 4:30 And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it?

Mark 9:1 And He was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Mark 9:47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Mark 10:15 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all."

Mark 10:23 And Jesus, looking around, *said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!"
Mark 10:24 And the disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus *answered again and *said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
Mark 10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Mark 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.

Mark 14:25 "Truly I say to you, I shall never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

Mark 15:43 Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.

Luke 4:43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."

Luke 6:20 And turning His gaze on His disciples, He began to say, "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

Luke 7:28 "I say to you, among those born of women, there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Luke 8:1 And it came about soon afterwards, that He began going about from one city and village to another, proclaiming and preaching the kingdom of God; and the twelve were with Him,

Luke 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, in order that \seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.

Luke 9:2 And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God, and to perform healing.

Luke 9:11 But the multitudes were aware of this and followed Him; and welcoming them, He began speaking to them about the kingdom of God and curing those who had need of healing.

Luke 9:27 "But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."

Luke 9:60 But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."

Luke 9:62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Luke 10:9 and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'

Luke 10:11 'Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet, we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'

Luke 11:20 "But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Luke 13:18 Therefore He was saying, "What is the kingdom of God like, and to what shall I compare it?

Luke 13:20 And again He said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God?

Luke 13:28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out.
Luke 13:29 "And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.

Luke 14:15 And when one of those who were reclining at the table with Him heard this, he said to Him, "Blessed is everyone who shall eat bread in the kingdom of God!"

Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since then the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

Luke 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst. "

Luke 18:16 But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Luke 18:17 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all."

Luke 18:24 And Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!
Luke 18:25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Luke 18:29 And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,

Luke 19:11 And while they were listening to these things, He went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.

Luke 21:31 "Even so you, too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.

Luke 22:16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. "

Luke 22:18 for I say to you, "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."

Luke 23:51 (he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God;

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 1:3 To these He also presented Himself alive, after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days, and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."

Acts 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Acts 28:23 And when they had set a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God, and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.

Acts 28:31 preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

Rom. 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 4:20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in words, but in power.

1 Cor. 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor. 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor. 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Gal. 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Col. 4:11 and also Jesus who is called Justus; these are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are from the circumcision; and they have proved to be an encouragement to me.

2 Thess. 1:5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

 

What do you mean? Are you saying that Jesus could not be speaking about a 1000 year kingdom because the Israelites didn't understand that it was a 1000 year kingdom? That's not very sound logic. Jesus deliberately taught the kingdom in a manner that they would not understand, so why should they understand it?

Mark 4:11-12
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


If the understanding of the Israelites is to be our guide for interpretting the kingdom passages, then we must know that the kingdom is an earthly kingdom, not some pie-in-the-sky heavenly realm. They understood that He was speaking of a kingdom on earth, that the throne of David was going to be established as God promised.

2 Samuel 7:16
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever.

Mark 11:9-10
9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:
10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

Acts 1:6
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Regardless, we have the testimony of scripture that there is a 1000 year kingdom, after which Satan will be loosed for a little season. This cannot be talking about endless eternity.

Revelation 20:6-7
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

Who is this CraigByTheSea, and what planet is he from? Does he act this way all the time?

He is in to rapid firing proof-texting that really has nothing to do with what he says. He probably should get the "ignore" from us!

It is apparant that you do not even know what these verses are talking about.

Have you ever given a biblical argument before? It sure does not seem like it.

As if the number of your scriptures should make us more apt to believe you.

EEk!

Antonio

 

I think that you are on a right track.

Antonio

 

Could you explain to us what this means, Roguelet? What was James saying here? Why did you post this without any comment? Do you think that he is contradicting Paul?

Antonio

 

You are confusing free grace with Free Grace theology. Free Grace theology is a modern system of beliefs and interpretations of the Bible that are absolutely heretical and which were popularized several years ago by Zane Hodges and a very small handful of others in the Grace Evangelical Society, the most notable of which are probably Joseph Dillow and Bob Wilkin’s. This is not a discussion of whether or not works are necessary for salvation—that is an entirely different subject, but a very complex and difficult subject because it has to do with distinguishing between works of the Law and good works, a distinction which in most passages in the Bible is easy to make, but there are passages in the Bible where the distinction is subject to debate. It is also a difficult subject because it has to do with distinguishing justification from salvation. This present discussion is a discussion of the theology of Zane Hodges and the Grace Evangelical Society and the ultra-radical Joey Faust. Free Grace theology is also known as Millennial Exclusion theology and Millennial Punishment theology.
</font>[/QUOTE]People, why do you listen to this man as if he is some authority on the matter?

All he says here is a straw man. He is misrepresenting and mischaracterizing the issues. Free grace theology is absolutely NOT also known as MILLENNIAL EXCLUSION or MILLENNIAL PUNISHMENT theology. People who believe these things can believe in Free Grace theology, but MOST DO NOT. And it is specious and disingenuous to equate the two!

Craig, you do not know what you are talking about. Go do your homework.

If anyone wants to know OUT OF THE MOUTHS OF FREE GRACE PROPONENTS what Free Grace theology teaches, go to:

http://www.faithalone.org
http://www.chafer.edu

And BROWSE around them. There are dozens and dozens of articles and a message board there.

Don't be fooled by the misrepresentations of Free Grace theology by some here.

Antonio

[ October 11, 2005, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Free Gracer ]

 

Moderator note:

Personal insults will not be tolerated on this thread!! If they continue I will lock thread!

 

Bapmom,

Go to http://www.faithalone.org and click on "Newsletters" or "Journal" and read about Free Grace theology. You will be pleasantly surprised. It is just sick to me that it is so highly misrepresented here.

To me, it is the key that unlocks the whole bible, by opening it up in a way that I never realized possible. It sees the Bible cohesively without ANY apparant contradictions that arise from Arminian and Calvinistic theologies.

It takes a normal, literal approach to the Scriptures. People you may recognize, such as Lewis Sperry Chafer (the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary), John Walvoord (author of many good books and 2cnd president of Dallas Seminary) and others were Free Grace theology advocates.

Take a look at the articles and see for yourself rather than taking what other people say about it. See for yourself.

Antonio

 

I really have no experience with Dallas Theological Seminary, or any of the men you mentioned. My circles are different, apparently.

But, may I ask, is this not an issue that we will find out the truth on "when we get there"?

I don't know that I could agree with the idea that some saved people will be excluded from the Millenial kingdom. I thought that whenever the Bible mentioned "outer darkness" and "wailing and gnashing of teeth" it always is referring to Hell......not a nebulous place that bad Christians are sent to.
I definitely can see loss of reward for those Christians who continually live a defeated life, but I don't see that as meaning they are being tortured.

You understand, I can type fast, but I don't always have alot of time to sit and read, and often I have distractions which, frankly, ought to and do take my attention....

So please forgive if I don't read every word of all of the articles posted. I try to glean as much as I can, and often go back in the evening when its quieter to read again.
So, have I characterized your beliefs correctly, FG? or no?

 

Ok, I see now on that website that FB posted that there are articles there refuting the idea that God made obedience a prerequisite for entering into the kingdom. That does help.

 

I do not believe in Millennial Exclusion, and the theology of it is not equated with Free Grace theology, although Joey Faust believes in many tenets of Free Grace theology.

I would love to explain for you what the majority of Free Grace advocates believe about "outer darkness". Let me get some time tonight.

But let it be said that the Millennial Exclusion doctrines are a minority position in Free Grace theology and do not represent the majority.

Antonio

 

???

Antonio

 

I think Craig is right when he says that Millennial Exclusion is the logical conclusion of Free Grace. More and more people are seeing it all the time. The reason Craig rails on it so hard, is because it takes all his beloved 'lose your salvation' verses (or work for salvation or whatever you want to believe) and puts them into harmony with the free grace teaching. Craig cannot think that God might allow someone to have eternal life without them chipping in on it. He likes to use verses like James 2:14 to show that faith will not save you without works.

 

Antonio,

maybe I said it wrong, but the website you posted does have articles in it that disagree with Millenial Exclusion.

So just because someone calls themselves a "free grace" person, does not automatically mean they believe in Millenial Exclusion.

Thank you.