God's Providence

Brother Vaughn,

1. Yes and Yes.

2. I frankly do not see how God could predict an event with certainly unless it were predestinated. I do not perceive God as a cosmic fortune teller, I perceive Him as a cosmic fortune maker.

I make these comments with all reverence and with the qualification that I also frankly admit that I don't pretend to understand all, or even a little, of what there is to know about God's foreknowledge.

3. By "actively moving" I mean that I don't think God takes a "hands off" approach to managing the creation. I don't think He causes man to sin, but I think He knows how to manipulate man's sinfullness to get what He wants done.

For example, in the case of Samson God used the lust that was in Samson's heart to fulfill His purpose of punishing the Philistines. The text plainly says it was "of the Lord." That is active involvement.

Another example is that of the trials that came on Joseph. Though we know that God did not put murder in his brother's hearts nor adultery and lying in the heart of Potiphar's wife, we still must acknowledge the fact that in the end Joseph said,

"But God meant it unto good."

And then in the case of the crucifixion we have these words,

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God [now there is some active predestination for you!] ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

I would not even pretend to know the "how" of all this nor the "why" and I'm not even comfortable speculating about it. All I want to do is acknowledge the fact, well attested by Scripture, that even when evil deeds are done God is still in control of the situation, moving the deeds of men to accomplish His goals.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Brother Vaughn,

You asked,

"If the second answer is yes, that the murder/manslaughter of the family is a sin: how can you say that 'I will be so bold as to say God CAUSES the drunkard to kill your family' and yet maintain 'I do not believe God ever caused a man to sin'?"

I know the Lord does not cause people to sin because He said,

"God cannot be tempted with evil neither tempteth he any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

Furthermore, the Lord has so ordered the creation so that certain actions on our part result in certain consequences. When a man gets drunk he knows that he will lose control of his behavior which can result in harm to other people. Therefore, he is held responsible for whatever results from his drunkeness.

This does not change the fact that God:

1. Creates the physical phenomena of drunkeness.

2. Gave the drunkard access to and the ability to consume enough liquor to stimulate drunkeness.

3. Gave the drunkard breath and life to carry out his deeds.

4. Gave the drunkard access to a vehicle.

5. Providentally brought the drunkard's vehicle into contact with the victim's vehicle.

6. Withdrew breath from the family killed in the accident.

7. Providentally use the drunkard's sin as an instrument of death to the family.

I can also answer your question with plain Scriptural statements that one and the same event can have separate causes:

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

But,

"And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, God, number Israel and Judah."

And again,

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Unless you believe God put murder in the heart's of the Lord's persecutors, you must believe that the same event had a two-fold cause.

"How unsearchable are his judgements and his ways past finding out!"

Mark Osgatharp

 

Brother Vaughn,

I'm not sure if you are objecting to my argument about God's providence only to it's perceived inconsistency with my statements about the Westminister Confession and it's Baptist abberations. For the moment, I will consider my argument well established and will explain wherein "is the difference."

The Westminster Confession of faith asserts that God, from eternity past, decreed all things that come to pass. That means, past any subsequent and contradictory statements to the contrary, that God decreed all sin since sin most certainly comes to pass. That allows for no variable whatsoever.

The situation I described with a drunkard killing a family has variable's in it. The drunkard didn't have to get drunk because God did not decree that he get drunk. Had the man not gotten drunk the Lord could have sent a tornado or a couple of she bears to kill the family. The Lord, indeed, caused the man's sin to kill a family, but did not cause Him to sin.

Then you have the matter of the family itself. They may have commited some sin for which the Lord saw fit to kill them. Or He may have simply been taking them out of this life to spare them some misery. Or maybe some were being punished and others were being spared.

In any case, there are variables throughout the whole situation that are hinged on man's sin or refraining from sin. Whereas, in the Westminster scheme of things, the whole situation, sin and all, was a done deal from the start because God caused it to be so.

In the biblical case, God used the sin in the man's heart to bring an end to pass; in the Westminister scheme, God must of needs put the sin in the man's heart. That, I would say, is a monumental difference!

Mark Osgatharp

 

Brother Vaughn,

I have given you plain Scripture which assert that God utilizes the sin in man's heart to bring to pass events that He either predestinated in eternity or decided in time to bring to pass. Furthermore, I have attempted to give a reasonable harmony of those Scriptures with the Scriptures which declare that God does not tempt man with sin.

By contrast, the Westminister Confession makes a categorical assertion that everything which comes to pass was decreed by God, of His own will. Let's see how strongly it is stated:

"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass."

That makes God the author of sin. The modifiers which immediately follow this statement are but the vain attempt of some guilt riddled Presbyterian to excuse himself for charging God with willing and decreeing his every sin.

The Bible makes no such statement as this infamous first clause of the third chapter of the Westminister Confession and therefore no one is obligated to harmonize it with the Scriptures or reason and all attempts to do so are but quibbles and dodges.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Brother Vaughn,

If your sylogism is accurate then it necessarily follows:

1. God caused the killing of Christ.

2. The killing of Christ is sin.

3. God caused sin.

The problem with your sylogism is that it fails to acknowledge the difference between God killing someone and man killing someone. God is authorized to kill anyone at any time He chooses and use any means He chooses to do it.

Christ was, in the words of Scripture, "delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." He was a "lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

And yet there is no doubt that the men who took His life were judged as murderers. The Scripture says they were. Therefore my distinction between the sin itself, for which man is responsible, and God's utilization of man's sin to bring to pass His determined will, is taught in the Bible.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Brother Vaughn,

You said,

"You also have made a subtle change in your last post, shifting to the principle that God can kill anyone at any time. But the original statement behind the syllogism is that God caused the drunkard to kill the family and what the drunkard did was a sin."

By asserting that God "caused" the drunkard to kill the family I never meant that God caused him to be a drunkard. If I left that impression I want to apologize and make it clear that is not what I meant.

What I do mean by saying God "caused" the drunkard to kill the family is that God utilized his drunkeness to facilitate the death of the family. I will stand by this as a Bible principle - that God causes the deeds of wicked men to result in His own pleasure.

Just as in the case of Christ - God did not cause the men who murdered Him to be murderers. Yet God did providentally cause their murder to result in the crucifixion according to His determinate counsel and foreknowledge. Had the men who did that dastardly deed decided to heed the warning of God and repent of their intended wickedness, they could have escaped that condemnation and God could easily have found other murderers to do the deed.....

......which is a monumentally different thing from saying that God did "from all eternity" and "by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain" those particular men to crucify the Lord of glory!

Mark Osgatharp

 

Brother Vaughn,

You said,

"Or, in other words, is there a difference between God directly causing something to happen and Him causing what happens to result in His pleasure? And is that what you are clarifying in place of the original statement?"

There is, indeed, a huge difference between these two things and I am clarifying that is what I meant by my original statement. I did never intend to say God caused a man to commit sin. I did say and do maintain that God causes our sins to fall out to His ultimate purposes.

You said,

"Your position seems to exonerate God from causing sin if He waits till 'the moment of' to cause it to happen, rather than choosing to do so in the beginning."

If the "when" was the only matter it would be a small matter indeed; but I have not said that God ever causes sin. I have maintained all along that God does not cause sin.

By contrast, the Westminister Confession and it's daughters do say that God causes sin, although it does immediately retracts the charge.

Mark Osgatharp