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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Rippon, Aug 12, 2014.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I found the following explanation of the acronym, TULIP, to be informative.

    I have always had a problem with the acronym TULIP because it is sometimes said to encompass all the Doctrine of Grace a claim which I reject. I also have a problem with some of the terms, particularly limited atonement and irresistible grace. I prefer particular redemption rather than limited atonement and regeneration rather than irresistible grace though some prefer effectual calling.

    The term "irresistible grace" has been too often used to imply that God drags the sinner kicking and screaming to salvation. {Now I have seen some mothers do some dragging of young children to church membership though they were not "kicking and screaming"!} I prefer the term regeneration to effectual calling because I believe regeneration or the "new birth" makes the Gospel call an effectual call.

    I also reject the name Calvinist simply because Calvin held to some doctrines, such as infant baptism, which I reject! The Doctrines of Sovereign Grace were not the invention of Calvin, they are the teaching of Scripture.
     
    #21 OldRegular, Aug 21, 2014
  2. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    #22 Tom Butler, Aug 21, 2014
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    More Alternatives to T-U-L-I-P

    Roger Nicole: G-O-S-P-E-L

    Grace
    Obligatory Grace
    Sovereign Grace
    Provision-making Grace
    Effectual Grace
    Lasting Grace

    Greg Forster : W-U-P-S-I

    Wholly Defiled
    Unconditional Choice
    Personal Salavation
    Spernatural Transformation
    In Fath, Perseverance

    Dan Montgomery and Tim P. Jones : P-R-O-O-F

    Planned Grace
    Resurrecting Grace
    Outrageous Grace
    Overcoming Grace
    Forever Grace
    ________________________________________________

    Of course all of these authors spend some considerable time in fleshing-out these acronyms.
     
    #23 Rippon, Aug 21, 2014
  4. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    For all the reformed men... bacon:

    [​IMG]
     
    #24 RLBosley, Aug 22, 2014
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I howled the first time I saw that pic a few years ago. You cannot go wrong with bacon.
     
    #25 Reformed, Aug 22, 2014
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Isn't this conversation just pie in the sky? Calvinism/TULIP is what it is. It's like these folks who say "Don't call it pro-abortion, it is pro-choice" and some how that then means one does not support murder.

    I'll play along....let's ban the phrase "Doctrines of Grace" since both sides believe in the Doctrines of Grace outlined in the Scriptures but each side defines them and applies them differently. Calvinism has attempted to use this title to bolster their argument for TULIP. Afterall, it sounds really great doesn't it....Doctrines of Grace.....AMEN I say....of course when I say it I do not mean Calvin's doctrines of Grace.
     
    #26 steaver, Aug 22, 2014
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Our SDA brothers and sisters would argue differently. They believe that bacon eating will cancel out any grace you think you might be getting towards heaven. :wavey:
     
    #27 steaver, Aug 22, 2014
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They hold to another/false gospel, so trhat would be the least of their worries!
     
    #28 Yeshua1, Aug 22, 2014
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    No, the acronym of TULIP is not the end-all. It was invented only 109 years ago. That is hardly a blip on the screen of Church History. Other brief formulations such as the ones mentioned so far may be better handles to convey in brief what is contained in the Canons of Dort. But there is nothing like actually reading the document yourself.

    I use my 861 page The Voice of our Fathers :An Exposition of the Canons of Dordrecht by Homer C. Hoeksema for consultation. It is quite informative and edifying.
     
    #29 Rippon, Aug 22, 2014
  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Bumping because I'm still looking for someone to answer my questions.
     
    #30 InTheLight, Aug 22, 2014
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    As long as those holding against that concept are honest that in their theology, the will of man can and does overcome the will of God!
     
    #31 Yeshua1, Aug 23, 2014
  12. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    Why assume the worst? Assuming that Calvinists want to obfuscate the teaching is unnecessary.

    I do not particularly like the term Limited Atonement because it is too imprecise, too easy to misunderstand. That is why I prefer an alternative such as Particular Redemption. Of course TUPIP doesn't work very well...:laugh:

    The outward, proclamation of the gospel would be the "ineffectual" call as you put it, or the "general" call as traditionally defined. It can be and often is rejected.

    There are also some moves of God's Spirit that are resistible, obviously:
    Act 7:51 NASB - "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.​
    But the teaching of "Irresistible Grace" is not that ALL grace is irresistible at all times. Instead it is the teaching that at some point in the life of the elect, God's grace will overcome all resistance to the gospel. So I prefer something like "Overcoming" or "Overwhelming" grace.

    Get it?
     
    #32 RLBosley, Aug 23, 2014
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as we all here resisted the Spirit until that time when he enabled us to see and understand and say" Oh, NOW I see the truth!"
     
    #33 Yeshua1, Aug 23, 2014
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Enabled us to see and understand or brought us to the point that we saw and understood?
     
    #34 JonC, Aug 23, 2014
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    That's what I was saying in the OP and elsewhere for some time. Roger Nicole wrote an excellent little book called Our Sovereign Saviour :The Essence of the Reformed Faith. Here are some snips regarding limited atonement.

    "This, I think, is a complete misnomer... I cannot accept [it], for this is a total misrepresentation of what we mean to say.

    ...Therefore, the purpose of the atonement is restricted to the elect and is not spread to the universality of mankind.

    ...I, for one, am not happy to go under the banner of limited atonement...We ought to talk about 'definite atonement'. We ought to say that there was a definite purpose of Christ in offering himself. The substitution was not a blanket substitution. It was a substitution that was oriented specifically to the purpose for which he came into this world, namely, to save and redeem those whom the Father has given him." (pages 50,51)
    And Dr. Nicole offers some insight here as well. Again, I will submit some snips.

    "The grace of God does not funtion against our wills but is rather, a grace which subdues the resistance of our wills. God the Holy Spirit is able to accomplish this.

    ...When there is resistance God comes in with his mighty grace and subdues that resistance. He makes no one come against his will, but he makes them willing to come. He does not do violence to the will of the creature, but he gently subdues and overcomes human resistance so that men will gladly respond to him and come in repentance and faith. We ought not to give the impression that somehow God forces himself upon his creatures so that the gospel is crammed down their throats, as it were...in the case of the apostle Paul...God overcame his resistance. The result is that Paul was brought willingly and happilily into the fold of the grace of God.

    What we mean here is not 'irresistible' ...but 'effectual.' That is, the grace of God actually accomplishes what he intends it to accomplish." (pages 52,53)
    ________________________________________________________

    And here is an extract in which he deals with the fifth point:

    "The key to perseverance is the preservation by God of his saints, that is, the stability of his purpose and the fixity of his design. What is to be in view here is not so much the perseverance of those who are saved, but the perseverance of God with the sinners whom he has gloriously transformed and whom he assists to the end. We ought to talk about 'God's perseverance with his saints'. That is the thing that we need to emphasize." (p. 54)
     
    #35 Rippon, Aug 27, 2014
  16. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Timothy George's "ROSES"

    Hello all:

    I have not read through the thread, but has anyone suggested using Dr. Timothy George's ROSES instead of TULIP?

    Just asking? :smilewinkgrin:

    rd
     
    #36 Rhetorician, Aug 27, 2014
  17. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Here 'tis, borrowed from T. C. Robinson's blog, Faith and Culture.
    http://nleaven.wordpress.com/2013/11/12/roses-alternative-to-tulip-by-timothy-george/


    • Radical Depravity–Compared with total depravity, radical depravity agrees that every aspect of our being was damaged through the Fall and we can do nothing to save ourselves, but affirms that humans are not totally evil because we retain the image of God despite our fallenness.
    • Overcoming Grace–Compared with irresistible grace, overcoming grace (or effectual calling) affirms that God accomplishes salvation, but differs in that rather than salvation being a mechanical and deterministic process, it allows for even sinful, obstinate humans to respond to God’s persistent wooing.
    • Sovereign Election–In contrast to the double predestinarianism of unconditional election, God sovereignly elects those whom He foreknows will respond to Him.
    • Eternal Life–The phrase “perseverance of the saints” might suggest that although we are saved by grace, we are kept by our good works. The phrase “Once saved, always saved”could suggest that we could claim Christ as Savior without making Him Lord of our lives.
    • Singular Redemption–Finally, unlike limited atonement, singular redemption communicates that Jesus’ death was sufficient to save everyone but is efficient only for those who repent and believe.
    Robinson says ROSES is not true Calvinism. Read his entire article at the link I listed above.
     
    #37 Tom Butler, Aug 27, 2014
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It is not at all Calvinistic and is to be rejected as unscriptural.
     
    #38 Iconoclast, Aug 27, 2014
  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    TULIP may not translate perfectly into the modern vernacular, but it is not inaccurate. No matter how you term it, the efficacy of the Atonement is limited to the Elect. I appreciate definite and particular atonement as terms, but they wind up at the same place as Limited Atonement.
     
    #39 Reformed, Aug 27, 2014
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To borrow from Isaac Watts regarding the limited atonement conflict:

    “When the Remonstrants assert that Christ died for all mankind merely to purchase conditional salvation for them; and when those who profess to be the strictest Calvinists assert that Christ died only to procure absolute and effectual salvation for the elect; it is not because the whole Scripture asserts the particular sentiments of either of those sects with an exclusion of the other. But the reason of these different assertions of men is this, that the holy writers in different texts pursuing different subjects, and speaking to different persons, sometimes seem to favor each of these two options; and men, being at a loss to reconcile them by any medium, run into different extremes, and entirely follow one of these tracks of thought and neglect the other.”

    My view is that we cannot take God’s redemptive plan, cut it up in to small sections, place those small sections into little boxes, hold up one of those boxes alone and say “this is salvation in its entirety.” The reason I prefer “particular redemption” over “limited atonement” is that the cross was not God’s only instrument in His plan of redemption. Without the cross, there is no salvation, and without faith there is no salvation.
     
    #40 JonC, Aug 27, 2014
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