How Do We Define "Limited Atonement" per the Bible?

You guys can hug each other and wear matching clothes, doesn't make you correct.

Jesus said he would lay down his life for the sheep. This does not necessarily mean he was saying he was going to lay down his life for the sheep ONLY. You can't simply ASSUME that is what Jesus meant, you must compare this statement with all other scriptures pertaining to the same subject. When you do this you find there are many verses that say Jesus died for all men, that he died for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2). And we know John was speaking of 100% of mankind in 1 Jn 2:2, because in 1 Jn 5:19 he says the "whole world" lies in wickedness, and in Rev 12:9 John says that Satan deceives the "whole world". So we know for a fact John was not speaking of the elect only when he said "whole world".

There are many other verses that show Jesus died for all men, but Calvinists must wrest scripture to explain them away.

Knowing this, we know when Jesus said he would lay down his life for the sheep, that he was not saying he would die for the elect ONLY.

That is how you properly interpret scripture, by comparing scripture to scripture.

 

Here is a quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, who were certainly "Calvinists of old":

These 17th Century Calvinists understood that there were "those whom God hath predestinated unto life." The atonement secured their salvation and their salvation alone. This is the view of the atonement that Spurgeon articulated; it is also the majority view among Calvinists. Are there purported Calvinists who hold a different view on the atonement? Yes. Are they the majority view? No.

 

Perhaps he had a lapse of memory ......Most Reform Baptists do subscribe to 1689 and/or 1644. Now if he was referring to our Presbyterian brethren, its the Westminster Confessions & almost identical (except for that Pedobaptist nonsense they adhere to) but I think you get my point.

 

Jesus begins John 10 by saying:

The definite article appears in the Greek, the sheep. Usually this means a specific thing or group. We have to look further down in the chapter to understand who this thing or group is.

The sheep spoken about in verses 11-15 are actually sheep of a specific group; they are "My sheep." These sheep are sheep that belong to Jesus Christ. He laid down His life for these sheep and these sheep only. We do not read that He laid down His life for anyone except His sheep.

 

Winman.
You said this;

If you only did what you say to do you might see the biblical solution.
I offered you other scripture speaking to the same subject..which you must ignore because it will show what the truth is......hold on...let me post it for you!

God identifies His sheep......notice how many times He says, I will search, I will save, I will feed them....The action is God's alone.

Jesus is the good shepherd, He seeks and saves that which is lost....

The object of God's eternal love are the elect sheep. If you understand ezk 34, jn 10, luke 19......you will come to truth.......if not you will persist in error and falsehood.:thumbs:

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Another good solid post......You and P4t and ewf, and herald see the same thing in the bible that millions of other believers have seen:thumbs::thumbs:

 

Here's the 1646 Confession complete with proof-texts:-

Steve

 

Winman,

What makes us correct on this matter is the revealed word of God...not our clothing style, or hugging one another:1_grouphug:

We are just posting and quoting scripture with understanding....every post has had regard to context. This is so clear it is unmistakable......unless......
someone had a previous agenda of anti calvinist jihadism:smilewinkgrin:

Who might that be???

 

Touche' Icono....:thumbs:

 

Once again Icon, when did I deny Jesus died for his sheep? NEVER! I agree with you 100% that Jesus died for his sheep.

Got that?

Are you sure? Maybe you need to go back and read what I said again.

Now that you've got that (I hope), saying Jesus died for his sheep (which he did) does not mean that Jesus did not also die for the goats.

If I said, "I am going to buy Christmas presents for my kids.", does that mean I am going to buy presents for my kids and no one else? NO!

But your mind is so conditioned to believe Jesus only died for the elect that you are unable to understand what Jesus really said. Jesus NEVER said he died for the elect ONLY.

And we know Jesus did not die for the elect only because much scripture says he died for all men. But because these many verses that say Jesus died for all men totally refute Calvinism and prove it error, you and others must explain this scripture away.

Jn 3:16 says God loved the world and gave his Son Jesus for it. This refutes Calvinism, so you and others wrest scripture and say "world" really means "only the elect".

As even Spurgeon said, God knows how to properly and accurately express himself, if God meant "only the elect", God could have said "only the elect".

Go sell your snake-oil somewhere else, I'm not buying.

 

Galatians 3:
The Law and the Promise
15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Romans 15:
7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews[Greek circumcision] on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing the praises of your name.”[2 Samuel 22:50; Psalm 18:49]

10 Again, it says,

“Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”[Deut. 32:43]

11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;
let all the peoples extol him.”[Psalm 117:1]

12 And again, Isaiah says,

“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
in him the Gentiles will hope.”[Isaiah 11:10 (see Septuagint)]

13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 9:
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[Hosea 2:23]

26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[Hosea 1:10]

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[Isaiah 10:22,23 (see Septuagint)]

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[Isaiah 1:9]
Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


When He was talking about His sheep He was talking about the remnant who is meek and humble who will trust in the Lord.

I am not His sheep, but a dog who begged at His table that He included with His sheep when i heard the Gospel of my salvation having believed. He will include Israel Jew that have gone their own way when they do not continue in their unbelief.

God will never choose me apart from Jesus, He has chosen one Jesus Christ, my only hope is remain in Him, not choose myself and say God has chosen me. Jesus is the only one worthy, not me.

 

All Cited Scripture Is From 2011 NIV

You're a hoot Winman. You're as stiff-necked as they come.

Why would John quote Jesus as he did? For naught?

In John 10:16 Jesus said:"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice,and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

Jesus does not say anything about goats will be included too in His sheep pen. Why? Because it is the sheep --His sheep -- not goats that are part of His sheep flock.

In verse 26 Jesus says :"but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." In verse 27 He says:"My sheep listen to my voice;I know them,and they follow me." Do the goats listen to His voice? Of course not. Only His sheep. In the following verse Jesus says something unequivocal. "I give them eternal life." Them, specifically them. No one else is given eternal life but the sheep. That's the thrust of his whole message from verses 1-29. How can you miss it --unless you are doing so intentionally?

 

Calvinism is as far from a sound understanding of the Word of God as any Kingdom Hall in the country. Proof-texting does not equate to sound doctrine.

You guys think that age equals correctness, which is doesn't. If it weren't for confessions and councils you would have little to say.

The only limit to the atonement is when a person, by their own free will, refuses to accept the gift God offers through the cross of Calvary.

 

There you go again comparing an heretical group with Calvinists. Can you ever blush with shame?

You have deliberately ignored what we have posted? Have you read my last few posts? How can you say the things you do when facts stand opposed to you at every turn? What Church Councils and Confessions have I cited?

 

Honestly now, you're going to equate the DoG with the Jehovah's Witnesses? Do you really think we hide behind confessions and creeds and not Scripture? You may disagree with our biblical conclusions, but don't lower yourself by throwing out ad hominems that make you look foolish.

 

Your brains are so hardwired by Calvinism that you have lost the ability to reason rationally or think outside the Calvinist "box". No one is denying Jesus died for the sheep.

But Jesus saying he would lay down his life for the sheep is not the same as saying he would lay down his life for the sheep "only". Scripture NEVER says that, in fact scripture repeatedly says Jesus died for ALL MEN.

I lay down my life for the sheep---> SCRIPTURAL

I lay down my life for the sheep only---> UNSCRIPTURAL, never said in scripture

Read that over and over, and perhaps you will eventually see the difference if you take those Calvinist blinders off.

 

He's staying true to himself Herald, as this is status quo for him. He has nothing theological to add, just ad hominem prattle as you've noted. We have given sound answers as rebuttals, yet this is the typical response of some non-cals including snow. It is their only recourse.

I find it interesting what they are allowed to equate us with. Calling someone a "JW" is questioning ones salvation. I believe this is the intent.

 

I've talked to JWs before, they are far easier to get through to than Calvinists.

 

Ok, so you agree that Christ died for the sheep. You say that it's not just the sheep. Please provide Scripture that says that Christ died for the goats.