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Hyper Calvinism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by pinoybaptist, Jun 20, 2006.

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  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I don't accept that Paul separates salvation into the categories you talk about. He continually states that true salvation brings with it the expectation of moral living and the rejection of the things of the flesh. Salvation that does not cover my sin and bring me into the presence of God can hardly be called "salvation" at all.

    Regardless, I Cor. 1:21 is certainly talking about salvation of the soul, and the gospel is the means by which that salvation, which is secured by Christ on the cross, is appropriated by those who believe.

    You have stated that those who are "elect" do not have to hear the gospel to be saved. Please tell how faith in Jesus came into their lives without hearing the gospel? Do you believe faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation?
    peace to you:praise:
     
    #21 canadyjd, Jun 21, 2006
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Let me make it clear, a person is saved by the work of Christ on the cross. That salvation is not appropriated until that person repents and believes in Jesus as Savior and Lord. God the Father, in His eternal wisdom, has ordained that the "gospel", which is the good news that Jesus has died for our sins and has been resurrected from the dead, be preached as the method/means by which the elect shall be brought to that salvation, through the work of Holy Spirit.

    Therefore, the preaching of the gospel to the whole world (since we do not know who the elect are) is ordained by God and is necessary for salvation to be appropriated. There is no salvation without the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    peace to you:praise:
     
    #22 canadyjd, Jun 21, 2006
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Friend: accept what you will, but the Bible is replete with examples of God's people talking about salvation in the timely sense.
    The blood of Christ covers all the sins, past, present, and future,, of all His people, past, present, and future, and secures their eternity for them.
    In Christ his children are seated in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6), and therefore, in Christ the child of God is in the presence of God.
    However, the child of God, until he exits this plane called time, remains in a body of sin and remains in an environment of sin, that is why he is brought by God into a church where he is to be fed, edified, disciplined, taught, and fellowship with other children of God.
    In that sense, one is saved from further sinning against God and thus getting chastised, or suffering the consequences of sin in this plane.
    However, his eternal resting place is secured in Christ because it was secured for him by Christ.

    No, it is not. The Corinthians were brethren, fellow believers, Paul is concerned about their behavior, and the fact that God is chastising the church. Read 1 Corinthians 11:30. As a matter of fact, read the entire book.

    [/quote]
    and the gospel is the means by which that salvation, which is secured by Christ on the cross, is appropriated by those who believe.

    By this statement are you saying that God only started saving after the cross ? that there were no saved people before the gospel was preached as it is preached now ? What are you going to do about Samson, Noah, Abraham, Samuel, King David, Job, the various kings of Israel, Ruth, Rahab, and the other OT saints ?
    There was no gospel by which the salvation of Christ could be appropriated.
    And for that matter, what are you going to do with the millions who have never, or will never get the chance to hear the gospel so that salvation can be appropriated to them.
    Have you damned all them to hell ?
    Has God damned all of them to hell because Christ died on the cross for sinners, yeah, but, unfortunately, there is no human being that can take the gospel to them so, well, that's it, sorry folks ?
    The gospel is good news. It does not happen because one believes in it. You believe it because it happened. Therefore, how can hearing good news about somebody dying for me save me ? It is not the good news that saved me, it is the fact that somebody died in my place, and now I do not have to worry about the penalty for my sins.
    This is all very elementary.
    Yet man always desires to have something else added into the equation and that is he wants him to be an active component.
    There is only one who acted in the matter of man's eternal salvation, and that one is the Triune God.
    Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, we have nothing at all to do with our salvation.
    We cannot strengthen it with good works, we cannot diminish from it with evil works.
    Our relationship to God here on earth, however, is another matter.
    God will not bless his child if his child continues in sin, and so we need to be saved from the daily ravages and influences of sin in our lives here on earth in order to walk with our Father.
    However, not having any man to teach us will not hinder the Spirit from witnessing to our spirit on how we ought to behave as children of God.
     
    #23 pinoybaptist, Jun 22, 2006
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Friend: accept what you will, but the Bible is replete with examples of God's people talking about salvation in the timely sense.
    The blood of Christ covers all the sins, past, present, and future,, of all His people, past, present, and future, and secures their eternity for them.
    In Christ his children are seated in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6), and therefore, in Christ the child of God is in the presence of God.
    However, the child of God, until he exits this plane called time, remains in a body of sin and remains in an environment of sin, that is why he is brought by God into a church where he is to be fed, edified, disciplined, taught, and fellowship with other children of God.
    In that sense, one is saved from further sinning against God and thus getting chastised, or suffering the consequences of sin in this plane.
    However, his eternal resting place is secured in Christ because it was secured for him by Christ.

    No, it is not. The Corinthians were brethren, fellow believers, Paul is concerned about their behavior, and the fact that God is chastising the church. Read 1 Corinthians 11:30. As a matter of fact, read the entire book.

    [/quote]
    and the gospel is the means by which that salvation, which is secured by Christ on the cross, is appropriated by those who believe.

    By this statement are you saying that God only started saving after the cross ? that there were no saved people before the gospel was preached as it is preached now ? What are you going to do about Samson, Noah, Abraham, Samuel, King David, Job, the various kings of Israel, Ruth, Rahab, and the other OT saints ?
    There was no gospel by which the salvation of Christ could be appropriated.
    And for that matter, what are you going to do with the millions who have never, or will never get the chance to hear the gospel so that salvation can be appropriated to them.
    Have you damned all them to hell ?
    Has God damned all of them to hell because Christ died on the cross for sinners, yeah, but, unfortunately, there is no human being that can take the gospel to them so, well, that's it, sorry folks ?
    The gospel is good news. It does not happen because one believes in it. You believe it because it happened. Therefore, how can hearing good news about somebody dying for me save me ? It is not the good news that saved me, it is the fact that somebody died in my place, and now I do not have to worry about the penalty for my sins.
    This is all very elementary.
    Yet man always desires to have something else added into the equation and that is he wants him to be an active component.
    There is only one who acted in the matter of man's eternal salvation, and that one is the Triune God.
    Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, we have nothing at all to do with our salvation.
    We cannot strengthen it with good works, we cannot diminish from it with evil works.
    Our relationship to God here on earth, however, is another matter.
    God will not bless his child if his child continues in sin, and so we need to be saved from the daily ravages and influences of sin in our lives here on earth in order to walk with our Father.
    However, not having any man to teach us will not hinder the Spirit from witnessing to our spirit on how we ought to behave as children of God.
     
    #24 pinoybaptist, Jun 22, 2006
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Please state it plainly. Does a man need faith in Jesus to have eternal salvation...or do you believe that the elect are saved without faith?

    peace to you:praise:
     
    #25 canadyjd, Jun 22, 2006
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, this statement is nonsensical, since you are making a distinction when there is no difference. Preaching the gospel is the preaching of Christ and Him alone as the cause of eternal salvation.

    Once again, do you believe that someone can have eternal salvation without having faith in Jesus Christ?

    peace to you:praise:
     
    #26 canadyjd, Jun 22, 2006
  7. doulous

    doulous New Member

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    This passage was mentioned earlier. As a Reformed* believer here is how I view these two verses...

    It is clear that Paul is writing about the salvific properties of the gospel message. Twice the forms of word euangellian (good news) are used. Paul specifically uses the word soteria (salvation) in verse 16. There is no doubt Paul is writing about the new life.

    What does Paul mean when he writes, "to everyone who believes"? It is what it is. Everyone who believes the gospel will be saved. Everyone who believes. Yes, as a Reformer I believe that only the elect will believe, but that does not change the intent of the passage. It does not say "all the elect that believe", does it? No.

    Conclusion? All those who believe will pass from death to life. I am not changing my Reformed view on iota. Only the elect will believe, but that is another argument.

    *I prefer to call myself Reformed instead of a Calvinist. My views are more accurately reflected by the entirety of the Reformation, not just John Calvin.
     
    #27 doulous, Jun 23, 2006
  8. pituophis

    pituophis New Member

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    So there are God's elect within the Mormon Church? Within the Jehovah's Witnesses? Within the Islam religion? There could even be God's elect that are practicing atheists?
     
    #28 pituophis, Jun 23, 2006
  9. doulous

    doulous New Member

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    Bingo! Absolutely! God's elect can be anywhere on this earth. God's elect can be involved in any religion, cult or humanistic system. I am glad someone finally got the picture. Good job! This is the essence of Ephesians 2 when Paul writes:

    God will call His elect from any system or religion. Once called and justified they will come out of those systems and worship and follow the Lord in obedience. They will not be able to continue in those systems that you mentioned.
     
    #29 doulous, Jun 23, 2006
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...well there goes the "P"...
     
    #30 webdog, Jun 23, 2006
  11. pituophis

    pituophis New Member

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    doulous, I was pointing to what pinoybaptist said (or what I think he was saying) about some who are elect that will be in heaven even though they do not "confess Christ" here on earth. To me he was saying NOT that God calls from those various beliefs (and removes them from them) but people can actually die thinking there is not God, or that Budda is God and end up in heaven because they are of the elect. Kind of like the man on a desert island who never hears the name of Christ.

    pinoy...did I interpret you correctly???
     
    #31 pituophis, Jun 23, 2006
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I have waited a couple of days for an answer. I hope you will address this question directly. It is clear that what you are stating leads to a belief that, at least some of the elect are saved without faith in Jesus.

    If that is what you believe, then you must know that you are standing outside the boundaries of 2000 years of Christian orthodox belief.

    I truly hope that you have misstated what you believe.

    peace to you:praise:
     
    #32 canadyjd, Jun 24, 2006
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