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In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by examiningcalvinism, Jan 17, 2007.

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  1. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum New Member

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    Not sure I fully understand you question but I will try.

    I will attempt to put it into my words. I think you are asking "Is God the author of sin?"

    God created everything. He created freedom to rebel. If creating the freedom to rebel means the author of the potential existence of sin then I personally don't have a problem with that.

    Did God create sin? I would say no. Did God create the potential for sin? I would say yes

    If I define the Authorship of sin as I understand it then in that sense God is the author of sin. Is God sinful because He creates the potential for sin? No

    In one sense the fact that God created the potential for sin by permitting the freedom to rebel then in that sense God is the author of sin or freedom to sin may be the more accurate way to say it.
     
    #101 GordonSlocum, Jan 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2007
  2. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Are you going to put that in your book? How much do I get paid? It does seem that God's perfect knowledge does in direct and indirect ways determine our future huh? Providence.
     
    #102 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Prove what... the definition of the word foreknowledge? Prove purple is really a color...
    So God only chooses based on a single attribute, omniscience? What about omnipresence, omnipotence, omnitemporalness? Do we just leave those off?
     
    #103 webdog, Jan 19, 2007
  4. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    What political office are you running for webdog? lol
     
    #104 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    It depends on what the definition of "is" is.
     
    #105 npetreley, Jan 19, 2007
  6. examiningcalvinism

    examiningcalvinism New Member

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    Reformed Believer

    Reformed Believer,

    :) Why wait? Why not take advantage of the free online version right now? (it's still under editting) www.examiningcalvinism.com
     
    #106 examiningcalvinism, Jan 19, 2007
  7. examiningcalvinism

    examiningcalvinism New Member

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    Reformed Believer

    Reformed Believer,

    In terms of God's providence, the WCF essentially teaches that God knows everything that will come to pass because He has decreed everything that comes to pass. However, what about the things that don't come to pass, but would? Consider Matthew 11:20-24 for a moment. Then I want to you look up 1 Corinthians 10:13. How does God know what you are able to handle? How does Jesus know what these cities would have done? They weren't decreed to be done, so how?

    Matthew 11:20-24
    Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

    1st Corinthians 10:13
    No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”
     
    #107 examiningcalvinism, Jan 19, 2007
  8. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    He has perfect knowledge.........

    He knows all the what ifs.... but He also knows the certainly wills. How does that change what I have asked you to prove about HIs perfect knowledge? If God knows how a man will choose, can the man choose differently? Prove it.
     
    #108 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  9. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    I see Gordon ran away.
     
    #109 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  10. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Looks like examining ran away too. Maybe they will find proof for me.
     
    #110 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  11. examiningcalvinism

    examiningcalvinism New Member

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    Reformed Believer

    Reformed Believer: Because it is knowledge after the fact.

    I didn't run away. I had to take a shower, and now I'm headed for lunch. :)
     
    #111 examiningcalvinism, Jan 19, 2007
  12. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Examining.... sorry, Richard, there you go using that after thing with God. Remember? He is as you say omnitemporal. There is no after with God...... He is with me at my death, and in eternity future.

    This does not deal with God's perfect knowledge. If God knows perfectly who will choose Him, then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him? Ephesians 1:4 Just as He chose us in Him, before the foudation of the world......

    I'm not off topic. I think this deals with the op perfectly. Now deal with my question, or you really have no leg to stand on.

    My book........ "Dealing With Arminianism" is going to be much shorter than yours......:thumbs:
     
    #112 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  13. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Some of what you say points to some understanding of the "dispensational" gospel of by faith we believe by the grace of God through faith of the elect, Jesus Christ, we will be saved. This is not theology of Calvinism, and it is not of Arminianism, but the "dispensational" gospel of Paul.

    Am I of Paul as you are of Arminian, and others of Calvin? No, I am of the gospel of Christ Jesus that He revealed to Paul. Why do we wish to be of the theology of man, when we have the knowledge and wisdom of God given to us by our Apostle Paul? It is the Elect that gave to Paul His Gospel just as He gave the Law to Moses that became Moses' Law.
     
    #113 ituttut, Jan 19, 2007
  14. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    I appreciate what you are saying brother. The fact is that none of us are of any theologian. When we say calvinist or arminian, that is just a theological designation...... however loosly. Kinda like being a Baptist.
     
    #114 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  15. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Thanks friend in Christ for your effort of a "heads up" enlightenment. But if we are of theology are we not then of some theologian? The theologian is someone who is learned in theology or who speculates about theology. We Baptist do speculate.
     
    #115 ituttut, Jan 19, 2007
  16. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    I see what you are saying..... but as you know, theology is God study. How can we be of someone, when what we are doing is reading various authors, to compare what their theology (God study) is compared to ours. I do see your point. I don't think any of us think we are of anything but our Lord Jesus Christ. That is all I was saying. Thank you brother.
     
    #116 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  17. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Using this logic, we can say we are eternally justified? I don't think so. I didn't think we were guilty until we acted, or justified until we received.
     
    #117 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  18. examiningcalvinism

    examiningcalvinism New Member

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    Reformed Believer

    Reformed Believer:

    You wrote: "There is no after with God......"

    But there is an "after" with man, and that's the point. God, being omnitemporal, is aware of every "after" of man.

    You wrote: "If God knows perfectly who will choose Him, then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him?"

    Let's dissect this....

    If God knows perfectly who will choose Him [how does He know that? answer: because God, dwelling in future, is listening to them at the alter praying], then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him [from God's perspective, being omnitemporal, they already have made their choice]"

    I would like for you to create an analogy of your understanding of foreknowledge. When you do, I bet that all you will do is portary determinism because you will not allow yourself to see real foreknowledge.
     
    #118 examiningcalvinism, Jan 19, 2007
  19. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Of course I'm determinist.... but not as in simple fate. God is in control of our destiny.
     
    #119 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
  20. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    So lets see...... God looks into the future, or is in the future as a man believes or does not believe, then in real time, a man is born who God in His omnitemporalness saw that he would not believe. Now this man grows up without a chance to believe because of God being omnitemporal. I think I have it now examining. :tonofbricks:
     
    #120 reformedbeliever, Jan 19, 2007
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