Is Lordship Salvation a misnomer?

Ernest Reisinger disagrees with your conclusion that this teaching is onyl recent (from www.founders.org/FJ13/article1.html)

"Lordship View Is Historic:
Because of the popularity of the Scofield Bible and Dispensational teaching the Scriptural Lordship doctrine has fallen upon hard times, having been largely forgotten by the majority of fundamentalist churches. However, we must never forget that Lordship salvation has been espoused by all the historic creeds and confessions, and by such note-worthy theological giants as John Calvin, John Owen, John Bunyan, John Brown, John Murray, and thank God, embraced by many respected recent scholars and theologians, such as, Louis Berkhof, James M. Boise, John Gertsner, R. B. Kuiper, James I. Packer, A. W. Pink, R. C. Sproul and the late Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones." [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Hello, John.

This is a very broad statement, that "Lordship salvation has been espoused by all the historic creeds and confessions," and all of these 13 men of history. I've read works by many of these men, including Berkhof's systematic theology, books by Packer and Sproul and some of the old guys. I don't remember ANY of them defining salvation like John MacArthur and the other modern LS advocates do, except for Stott and Packer (who wrote MacArthur's foreward). I'd have to read quotes by these men before I believe that they taught what MacArthur does in The Gospel According to Jesus.

There is an article in Bib Sac (Jan-March, 1990) by Thomas G. Lewellen, "Has Lordship Salvation Been Taught throughout Church History?" Granted, he says some of the Puritans did believe in LS. So maybe I need to rethink things here.

However, he furthur points out that the Reformers defined "saving faith" differently from LS advocates. He quotes Stott as saying, "We may believe in the deity and the salvation of Christ, and acknowledge ourselves to be sinners in need of his salvation; but this does not make us Christians. We have to make a personal response to Jesus Christ, committing ourselves unreservedly to him as our Savior and Lord." Then he quotes Calvin: "For, as regards justification, faith is something merely passive, bringing nothing of ours to the recovering of God’s favor but receiving from Christ what we lack." These are two different views.

 

Yes, I think we agree on those two questions. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, then, the first part is a given; On the second part, I think should go with the person, for a model that Scripture calls righteous or just.

Lemme' look- David, the murderer, the man after God's own heart. I dunno. I'll try again. I got it-

Noah! Naw, first thing he did off the ark was got drunk.

Jacob- name means 'chiseler' or thief- Ripped off his father-in-law, deceived his own father, and ripped off his brother, to boot. Man, this is hard. Some of these saints ain't too saintly, 'pears to me. Let me look a bit more in the Bible and I'll get back to you- Wait! Hang on! - -

I GOT it I got da' man! Best example I can find! He's called righteous or just, not once, not twice, but three times! That is the one I want. The Biblical saint of saints- Three times Scripture tells of his righteousness. So I'll suggest him as the ultimate role model from the Bible.
-My Hero-- is LOT!

In His grace,
Ed

 

Bad news. The Biblical answer is 100%. Basically, what you'rer saying is you want to be saved but you want to go on living as you did before. I'm afraid God won't accept your deal with Him. It's not the gospel.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, S&N, which one of these two things are you claiming-

That you are perfect, and you have given all (you did make the claim for 100%, you remember) and are beyond sin? Since, obviously, if and when one does sin, he or she ain't hit that 100% thing, yet.

Or are you claiming to be usaved at worst, and unsure at best? I don't get it, so I can use a little help, here! YOu know, inquiring minds, and all that.

In His grace,
Ed

 

Well, I suppose you could aspire to reach the level of tormenting your soul with the lawless deeds that you see and hear;

OR

You could pick a better example.

Hebrews 13:7 - "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."

(How did Lot's life turn out?)

3 John 1:11 - "Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. Whoever does good is from God; whoever does evil has not seen God."

2 Timothy 1:13 - "Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

On the other hand, Lot got by with his disobedience so maybe you will too. This does bring up a question though, one that is important for the assurance of our salvation. How much disobedience can we get away with and still be a believer?

 

How much disobedience can we get away with and still be a believer?

All of it! But watch out for the chastening hand of God. You will not be glad you disobeyed! We are kept by the power of God, not our obedience. A believer that continues in sin and disobedience does not lose his or her salvation, period.

 

Send me a copy of your birth certificate first. You must be of age before you can have it. [/QB][/QUOTE]

No, you'd have to be 'of age' to get it from the guv'mint! Your parents can get a copy, legally, and give it to you where you then "have it" as "a FREE GIFT"! Why, I'd almost even say it woulds be "ABSOLUTELY FREE!"(c)!
Ed

[ March 02, 2006, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: EdSutton ]

 

Amen, Brother! Preach it! This is, IMO, exactly what Scripture teaches. Granted, my advice is merely my opinion, here. But consider the price of this advice. Like as my eternal life was bestowed on me by Christ, this advice was and is "ABSOLUTELY FREE!"(c)
Ed

 

Mike in Ghana said:

At the same time, it is entirely possible that the so-called believer never had salvation to lose in the first place.


Tom B

 

Send me a copy of your birth certificate first. You must be of age before you can have it. </font>[/QUOTE]No, you'd have to be 'of age' to get it from the guv'mint! Your parents can get a copy, legally, and give it to you where you then "have it" as "a FREE GIFT"! Why, I'd almost even say it would be "ABSOLUTELY FREE!"(c)!
Ed [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Can I ride on a big airplane and go get it? Will it be free, or will you pay for it?

 

Amen, Brother! Preach it! This is, IMO, exactly what Scripture teaches. Granted, my advice is merely my opinion, here. But consider the price of this advice. Like as my eternal life was bestowed on me by Christ, this advice was and is "ABSOLUTELY FREE!"(c)
Ed </font>[/QUOTE]AMEN!

 

At the same time, it is entirely possible that the so-called believer never had salvation to lose in the first place.


Tom B </font>[/QUOTE]Good point, or no?? How about an example from the Bible, so I get where you are coming from. Aside from the self-righteous, that is. Although I didn't see anything about "so-called" in Mike's post.
Ed

 

Well, I suppose you could aspire to reach the level of tormenting your soul with the lawless deeds that you see and hear;

OR

You could pick a better example.

Hebrews 13:7 - "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."

(How did Lot's life turn out?)

3 John 1:11 - "Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. Whoever does good is from God; whoever does evil has not seen God."

2 Timothy 1:13 - "Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

On the other hand, Lot got by with his disobedience so maybe you will too. This does bring up a question though, one that is important for the assurance of our salvation. How much disobedience can we get away with and still be a believer? </font>[/QUOTE]Hey! I'M being consistent! I ask question; you answer; I give best example I can find, from Scripture! I could try to find a better example, I guess, but it is extremely difficult, as I read Scripture, anyhow. "For there is not a just (or righteous) man on earth who does good And does not sin." (Eccl.7:20, cp. I Ki. 8:46; c.f. Rom.3:10) is the general claim of Scripture. God allows only 10 exceptions to this rule, as far as I can find, and if (BIG if, as to number) memory serves, in the pronouncements from Scripture. One of these was Noah, from whom I'm descended, BTW. (I don't know about all of your ancestors, but I go back to Adam and Noah- I'm descended from a crooked farmer and a drunken sailor!) We already covered him. Another was the Lord Jesus, himself. John (not of Japan, FTR) is one (Mk. 6:20), but I ain't too sure I want to follow his example. He got so into his thing you could say he lost his head over it! Barnabas, who fell out with Paul, and gave nepotism a bad name, is another. I dunno'. Who would YOU suggest? Oh, yeah I think Solomon may be a good one, with his wisdom, but I can't see why (if he was the wisest man ever to live) ANYONE would want a thousand mother-in-laws. Let's go to Hebrews. I'll try here. Samson? Don't think so- don't like real long hair in the first place. Gideon? Rahab, the harlot? Sorry bunch all, if you ask me, and the sorriest of all is old Lot. POINT is, God DIDN'T ask me; HE said it; HE picked 'em; and HE never asked me one word about it. And as S&N suggested, I ain't arguing with Jesus- God the Son.

I'm not sure Lot is MY role model for 'getting by with something', either. Lemme' see. He was the Mayor of Sodom, which was a very large city at that time, apparently. He got "run out of office"; He got dragged out of town; He got to watch his city, his home, and probably even some of his own children perish, like in Hiroshima or 9-11; (I believe I did Hear something about his wife bein' a pillar in the community, or sumpin' like that anyways.) He was then seen "gettin' out of Dodge", to save his own skin, kinda like "Ol' Sammy-ben-runnin'" over in the Middle East, then we see him livin' in a cave, like "Ol' Sammy-in-hidin"; Letting his daughters getting him just drunk enough to put aside his morals, (assuming he had any left, in the first place) then having incest and fathering children with not one but the only two daughters out of five he had left on the earth. I dunno'- seems like a wonderful bit of "getting away with it" maybe if you are comparing it to a root canal without anasthetic, and an IRS audit at the same time.

This brings us to point three- You asked:
"How much disobedience can we get away with and still be a believer? " And we have really hit the nail here, haven't we? Just how good do we have to be? How much leeway are we given to 'judge' who is saved? (Why is it that I usually see the criteria Scripture shows, IMO, used more to tear down than build up?

Mike is right! His recent post was 'dead on'. God is not grading on a curve; but he is 'grading' us on our works. I believe the categories include gold, siver, jewels, wood, hay, and stubble. Anyone else notice there was no mention of sin, here? Guess the blood musta covered it all. Affect our relationship, as a believer? Not in the least; Affect out fellowship? To the max! Let's not confuse:
1.) Salvation and Service
2.) 'Come to me' and 'follow after me'
3.) Free gift of eternal life with earned rewards
4.) The Whole 'housecleansing' with the 'washing the feet'
5.) Most of all let's not confuse "Do!" with "DONE!"
In His grace,
Ed

 

I believe you are missing the point, OldRegular. I agree with what you have written here, but LS is not about after salvation but the means of salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps you misunderstand what those who believe in Lordship Salvation actually believe.

 

Why is it that dispensational nonsense gets woven into nearly every thread on this Forum? By the way why are there Christians on earth during the GRrreat Tribulation? I thought they all got "snatched" away. </font>[/QUOTE]Who said they are Christians?

Are you then arguing that people get to heaven based on how they treated others? You know, by their works?

It's amazing how some people will even deny the faith while standing up for Preterism.

 

Tom, you are 100% right. If a man was not a believer that changes the question doesn't it? A true believer can not lose his salvation. In fact God chooses to remember his sin no more! That is forever.

 

Bad news. The Biblical answer is 100%. Basically, what you'rer saying is you want to be saved but you want to go on living as you did before. I'm afraid God won't accept your deal with Him. It's not the gospel.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. </font>[/QUOTE]100% huh? Well then I have some bad news for you (and everyone else). We're all going to hell then since no one that ever lived, including Paul (Rom. 7:17-25), to thet standard.

Wouldn't you say that commiting sin is not full submission to God?

 

OldRegular wrote:

No one here is saying that. This doctrine of LS is hard to nail down for some folks. It says that one must make a deal with God to completely surrender lordship of their lives to Christ as part of a sort of contract agreement to obtain salvation.

It is grace through works re-packaged for Christian consumption.

 

No one here is saying that. This doctrine of LS is hard to nail down for some folks. It says that one must make a deal with God to completely surrender lordship of their lives to Christ as part of a sort of contract agreement to obtain salvation.

It is grace through works re-packaged for Christian consumption. </font>[/QUOTE]JackRUS! You got it right!

Ed