Is this what Limited Atonement means?

Let's take this apart thought by though.
First a definition:

As you can see by the definition of the word. There is nothing in it that has the power to save one from anything! There is power in it right one's wrongs, to make recompense for enjury, etc. But, nothing that saves.

So, when the scriptures tell us that Jesus took upon himself the sins of the world, and died in our stead, it means that we cannot be charged with those sins that Jesus made amends for? Now who does He make amends to? God the Father created the world, Created man, Commanded man to not eat of a certain tree lest ye surely die. but man disobeyed God, and man continued to live even to 630 years. And after man sinned against God, man bore children who bore children, who bore children etc. All the while man is sinning, and all the while God is Gracing man with His favor toward man. But man still dies, that is, does not have everlasting life. So God the father who placed the death penalty on man for sinning. Sent his only begotten Son, who himself is God, to ONCE for ALL times, take all the sins of the world upon himself, Pay the penalty for sin ONCE for ALL sins. Jesus made amends to the Father in our stead. So that we do not face the death Penalty for sinning. But instead, can through faith in the one who did the Atonement, have everlasting life.

Now please note that I defined the term. Clearly stated who performed the act of atonement, HOW and WHY. You will note that the atonement is an ACT OF GOD! and not of man or for man. You will notice that I told you how it is God who established the Death Penalty for sin! And, you will notice that I said that man sinned, and continues to sin from generation to generation even after the atonement for sin was a Completed work of God. So please understand that SIN is no longer a factor in man's Salvation. What was is no longer, because sin has been defeated, and no longer has the power of death over man.

The death that I am speaking of is the Second death of Revelation 20, where those who are found lacking faith in God are cast into the lake of fire which is called the second death. Those who are cast thereinto are never seen again, or heard from. They are remembered no more.

Since there is a second death, there must be a first death, and that first death is the death of the flesh! It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment! Once the flesh dies, the spirit of man is separated from the flesh and lives on in the spirit realm. It is the spirit form (glorified body) of man that is either judged, or passes from death into everlasting life. The factor that determines which is FAITH! You either have it or you don't. If you don't, into the lake of fire you go!

The purpose of the atonement is so that man, through faith in God, can have everlasting life. Without the atonement, man would die because of sin. With the atonement, man who hears the word of God and comes to faith in God, lives forever. Otherwise, without faith in God, the man dies because of lack of faith, not because of his sins.

 

Hi rlvaughn;

No we don't agree here at all. Christ died to pay the penality of sin. He took the sins of the world on Him self and used Himself as the escape goat. This only made it possible for men to be saved if they believed in Him.

That's true if that was why He died, but it isn't.

This is how I see Calvinism. I've been told by them they believe they are regenerated before they believe or have faith. They think they can be saved with out believing. Not true. They refer to regeneration as the enabling of man to follow Christ.. But Regeneration is being saved period.

Nor do I but our differences are more than just that. I believe that any man who will learn of Him can be given to Christ. I believe that God created us all for righteousness. Man goes to hell because of rejection. Rejection unto death is the blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and is unforgivable.

Mans Love of Christ. A love like a child has for it's parents. I'm completely and willfully in Love with Him. Nothing comes before Him. I'm nothing myself, but through him all things are possible. He is my strength He is everything to me.

That's strange because Larry told me that all calvinist believe this is man in his natural state. I'm sorry maybe your not a Calvinist.

This is true how ever it doesn't keep man from flight. Or wanting to fly unaided. Some men do they call it sky diving. They do it here off the side of a cliff.

I'll answer from the middle out this time. ("Then He further says that all who see the Son and believe have everlasting life,") No one I have ever known has ever seen Jesus unless they're dead. I believe he was talking about those present at the time.

We are only looking at this as human beings. I'm a pretribulationist and being so, I believe I will be raised or raptured before the last day. Now if your a post triber your are looking at this from the other side of the river. Of course it looks different to you because maybe you haven't considerd all the possible views of it. Anyone looking at just a few verses cannot possiblity understand the whole of it.

No one verse in scripture is complete. We have to study it. I know you've studied it to. Please consider this;
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

We have to have more than just one witness to this or it plainly isn't established. The more witnesses the better. Going by refference from my Bible program.This veres is simular.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now think for just a moment. Is it possible to take part in comunion and be raised up on the last day and not be saved?
There are very few churches in the world where even half of the congregation is really saved. But yet most usually just about everyone takes of the bread and wine. To assume that all who take part in this is saved I believe is mistaken.
Then in the same chapter we have this;
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
But Christ did loose Judas and Judas was given to Him.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Was Jn 6:44 a type "O" I don't think so and I know you don't either but it is one we have to admit that we don't have a clear view of.
May Christ Shine His light On Us all;
Mike

 

Mike, thanks for your further comments. I think I understand now the subtle difference in what you and Wes are saying, but if I get it wrong please correct me. I understand that you are saying that Jesus did not die to save anyone, but died to make it possible for people to be saved. Is that correct?

 

Some Calvinists believe this, but I do not think it is the majority belief. Many Primitive Baptists believe this, but most try to stay away from being considered Calvinists. Some perjoratively use the term "hyper-Calvinists".

I'm not sure what Larry told you, so I can't really respond to that. As far as being a Calvinist, I do not refer to myself that way, but would be considered so by most people in the Calvinist/Arminian debate. I don't really have a systematic theology of Calvinism.

Yes, but this does not negate the argument that man operates within and limited by his nature. It is within man's nature to invent and make things. But he cannot flap his arms and fly. And if he falls out of one of his flying aids, he will naturally fall to the ground. Within his nature he cannot invent something to help him stay underwater. But without those inventions he will drown. That is our nature. We always operate within it.

I believe "see" here means see spiritually rather than see with the physical eye. But regardless, this person under consideration in verse 40 who is raised at the last day HAS everlasting life.

Just looking at a few verses can be bad, but interpreting the Bible by our predetermined grid of systematic theology (whether it be Calvinism, Arminianism, pretribism, posttribism, etc.) can be worse. The Bible should govern the interpretation and not vice versa. You say you believe you will be raised before the last day, but at least four verses in John 6 say that some who are not lost, who believe on him and have everlasting life, who gave come to God, who have eternal life, are raised up at the last day.

This is figurative speech of partaking Christ and is not communion. The person in John 6:54 clearly has eternal life.

I admit that the Judas scripture is clearly problematic for my theology. But for now I'm content that I don't understand it all. It seems that this is a different type of reference about the apostles as opposed to John 6:39. I know this can sound like a cop out. But I'd rather cop out than make an argument that contradicts what Jesus said when He said it was the Father's will that He "should lose nothing".

 

Excuse me for butting in, but it is not what Wes and Mike say, it is what the scriptures say.

Jesus died to atone for sin, All the sins in the world, a one time sacrificial death by the only one who was worthy to atone for sin. And he did not atone for sins to man, He atoned for sins to the one who established death for sin His Father in Heaven. So the only worthy sacrifice for sin, did so, so that all mankind could through faith have everlasting life. "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

He came not into the world to judge the world, but that the world though him might have life.

 

rlvaugn,
I suggest that Judas was not Lost in the sense that you are using the term. It was prophesied that one of the messiah's close associates would betray him. We no know that is was Judas who was the one. Judas was elected to that task of being the betrayer. God knew for at least hundreds of years that judas would betray his son, yet he allowed it, even giving Judas to Jesus for that purpose. Judas was a key player in God's Plan of Salvation of man.

 

Wes, I'm not sure what you mean about how I'm using the term. I don't see anything in what you write about him that I would particularly disagree with, but I'm not sure how "lost" you think he was.

My main thought is that we shouldn't use John 17:12 to contradict what Jesus said in John 6, where He says all that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and of all He hath given me I shall lose nothing. To turn around and say "but, Oh, He did lose Judas", when commenting on 6:37,39 sounds like one is saying He got it wrong. Overall, I am satisfied that it doesn't contradict, whether you or Mike or I or anyone else can explain it to anyone's satisfaction.

BTW, I agree that what the scriptures say, not you or Mike or me or anyone else, is what matters. But at the same time I am trying to understand what you are saying, and must, in order to be able to compare what you say to the Scriptures. Thanks.

 

rlvaugn,
Lost at the end of Jesus Academy. Of the twelve who entered the academy at jesus request, only one of them failed, and that one was Judas. Even though he failed, He was a success, because he did exactly what was foretold would happen to the Christ, by a friend. Judas was "elected" to be the one who fulfills prophesy by betraying the master.(Psa 41:9 Even my trusted friend on whom I relied, who shared my table, takes advantage of me.) For that reason, he was lost. he did not remain among the church of Jesus Christ.
Also, (Psa 55:12-15 Were it an enemy who insulted me, that I could bear; if an opponent pitted himself against me, I could turn away from him. But you, a person of my own rank, a comrade and dear friend, to whom I was bound by intimate friendship in the house of God! May they recoil in disorder, may death descend on them, may they go down alive to Sheol, since evil shares their home with them.) Judas an elect of God given to the Christ, betrayed the Christ! Therefore, He was lost, never to be recovered.

 

For the record, to help your understanding, these are two different statements. Calvinist typically believe that man must be regenerated first, but that as a result of that regeneration, he will exercise faith unto salvation. Technically, regeneration is not the same as salvation. It is a part of salvation.

The poitn of that was this: Because of man's sin, he will not chooose to be saved. He does not want to and does not desire it. Only when God gives him a new nature will he want to do something else. God is not keeping man from getting saved. Man's willfull sin nature is hte only thing separating him from salvation.

 

Thanks, Larry, for the explanations. The first makes a good point that I failed to - that "they believe they are regenerated before they believe or have faith" and "they think they can be saved without believing" - are two very different statements, and not necessarily even complimentary. The second I agree with. I wasn't sure what kind of statement you had made to which Mike was referring. Clearly, man by nature is not righteous, does not understand, and will not seek after God (Rom. 3).

 

Hi rlvaughn;

I don't believe anyone has a perfect doctrine. I have to admit that I can be mistaken because we all can.

This is where I disagree because man's nature was never up to man. God created us in His image. I don't believe God created men for the purpose of destroying him. The reason is we are all still a lump of clay that can be formed and reformed. Jer 18 if you read it you'll notice that the potter is meticulous in His greation and can remove the imperfections. He can also place them back in but won't with out reason. The reason for the imperfections is there as well.

I believe we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is hoping for the unseen. I have never seen Him but I hope to. Seeing is believing. We sometimes forget that although simular they are not the same thing believing is knowing and faith is hoping.

I agree but we are all influenced by something. Not that there isn't any support for the pretrib theory. I've read and studied both views and find that they both have problems. What I've ended up doing is just hoping that I'll be found worthy to escape the trib. Post trib would use the last day as support but when is the last day For those who believe in Jesus they won't ever see a last day.

I don't believe its a cop out. I call it honesty. No one knows it all but God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

I would agree that man's nature is not up to man. It is what it is and he cannot change it. We are a lump of clay, but do not form ourselves - we need the potter to change the clay.

 

Hi Larry;

I know this is what you believe but it isn't supported by scripture as far as anyone has been able to show me. I don't deny that the Holy Spirit has a part in this but we are not saved by the Spirit. We are saved by Jesus Christ.He is the only way there is no other. Saving is what the Father appointed to Him.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I believe we are brought to conviction by the Holy Spirit. This is Him working on the heart of man. Scripture just doesn't say that the Holy Spirit regenerates us. If our heart is changed it's because of that conviction of our own sins. The heart will never be changed as long as man rejects Christ. It is we who must first trust Christ.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Trust is acceptance.

The flaw in this is that millions of people do things everyday, that they don't want to do. They do things for there own good, or for the good of someone else. To say that man only chooses the desires of his heart is obsurd.

How do you know that an unsaved man is limited to the desires of His heart?. Is this something you can prove with scripture?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Hi rlvaughn;

I disagree according to Jer.18:1-11 but God will only reform the clay if man turns from his evil ways. The potter doesn't form the clay to do evil in the beginning. It is our evil ways that mar the clay. In the beginning we are created in righteousness.
In order to be molded back into righteousness we have to be willing. We have to repent.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

I know this is what you believe</font>[/QUOTE]Technically, it is not what I believe, but that is irrelevant. I was correcting an incorrect statement about what Calvinist's believe.

IT has been defended in many places. Start with Murray's Redemption: Accomplished and Applied.

Another inaccurate statement since I don't know anyone who would say differently.

This is what every Calvinist would say.

Every Calvinist agrees.

The issue doesn't hinge on who gives life. However, most Calvinists equate regeneration with illumination and that is the work of hte Spirit (1 Cor 2:14).

Man will not do that until the Holy Spirit opens his mind to the gospel.

You are talking about something completely different. They do what they want to do in the value sense, because they see the value of doing things for their own good, or the good of someone else. No one ever does anything differently.

Yes, Eph 4:17ff to start with. Rom 3:10-17; JOhn 8:44 is pretty clear. And human experience makes it abundantly clear.

 

Mike, I'm not sure whether to understand "In the beginning we are created in righteousness" as referring to God's creation of Adam, or if you mean that every individual is now created in righteousness (without sin)?

As far as the context of Jer 18:1-11, it is about deliverance of nations and not salvation of individuals, thought I wouldn't say that applications cannot be made. Ultimately, I will not budge from "as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand". God is sovereign and accomplishes His will in heaven and earth. We both may be wrong in our varied interpretations, but there is no "wiggle room" from God's sovereignty.

Concerning the potter and the clay, consider Paul's New Testament interpretation, Romans 9:21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

Hi rlvaughn;

I'm sorry that isn't what I meant but rather we are created for righteousness.

A nation is made up of many men with out which there is no nation. If God remolds a nation he is reforming many men at once. And He is reforming them only because they repented.

Don't you think it's His will is for all of us to worship Him? It must be if every knee will bow on judgement day. How ever for most there worship comes to late. The furnace is ready to receive them.

The Sovereignty of God in mans view limits God when He is limitless. To say that God cannot or will not change His mind isn't so. God has changed His mind many times through out scripture. He changed His mind when He brought the flood and changed it again when God looked at Noah and saved him and his family. He changed His mind when men tried to build a tower to heaven. He changed His mind about Nenevah when they repented. I could go on but this is enough, for you to get the point. Every time God changed His mind it was always been because of the actions of men. To say He can't change His mind limits His sovereignty and makes his plan sovereign over Him.
There is only one way that God can retain His sovereignty. That is only if God planned to allow man the freedom of choice. To say man will only choose the desires of his heart just isn't so. This idea is not scriptural.

I don't disagree with Paul. It's just like I said we are still just clay in His hand and we are molded according to our own actions. That is what Jer. 18 is about.
If totally depravity is so, as the Calvinist doctrine states. Then we really need to take a good look at the main scripture for it's support.
From this verse:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Calvinist have told me that man cannot seek God or understand because of this verse. This verse does not say we cannot seek God.

If this is the description of natural man why doesn't the scripture say so, it doesn't. Calvinist have applied what a sinner thinks of men who seek God. The unsaved have always call us self righteous not knowing what we are talking about. That we only think we follow God because we all still sinners. The sinner has always been quick to point out our faults then claim we are just a bunch of hypocrits.
The next verse;
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
This is an accusation by one who will not submit to God and doesn't want you to either.
This next verse is not new to me because we are considerd all guilty for the actions of the RCC.
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

If man is indeed dead to spiritual things unless he is regenerated first then how come he still sins after being regenerated.Isn't he dead to sin after regeneration. Paul said He died daily to sin so does this mean that he was regenerated daily as well. If being dead spiritually means man can't respond to the gospel with out regeneration. Then when man is dead to sin he shouldn't be able to sin. Yet we all sin.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Hi Larry;

I have no idea what your talking about here The name Murray as far as I can tell isn't in scripture.

Everytime a Calvinist says we are regenerated by the Spirit he is saying we are saved by Him. We have to regard regeneration as being saved because that is what the word means.
Calvinist say that man is regenerated before faith. There is a huge problem with this. Faith is the hope for things unseen Regeneration is the knowing of those things.
In this next quote you just stated this;

Being illuminated is seeing, this is believing. Faith is the hope for what has not been seen.
For instant No one can tell me there is no Jesus Christ because I know Him. To say that man cannot understand the gospel from the verse you quoted is taking it completely out of context. Because Paul wasn't speaking about the gospel but the deeper things of God. In verse 10 Paul says;
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Everyone knows that faith is the hope for things unseen but it appears that Calvinist have reversed this. We are saved by Grace but Grace comes for a reason called faith. Faith comes by hearing and hoping that what you hear and haven't seen is real.

Salvation is very valuable and when man is presented with it's possibilities. If he trust what he hears he starts to hope for it.

None of these convince me because I see them differently than you do. I've given you my thoughts on them before. I still believe what I believe about them.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Hi, Mike. Thanks for the interesting post.

Yes, a nation is made up of men, but surely you don't suggest that all God's dealings with nations parallel all His dealings with individuals. If a nation is blessed, can God still curse a individual within it? If a nation is cursed, can God still bless an individual within it?

Man cannot limit God's sovereignty. I don't disagree that God deals with men on a conditional basis. The incident in Nineveh is a good example that happens exactly according to the way it is explained in Jeremiah 18:7-10. There are many times in the Bible where God says, "If you will, then I will..." But to equate this as being the same as a finite human changing his mind neglects to figure in the Biblical teaching that God "knows the end from the beginning".

Mike, I think you make the same mistake as some of my Calvinist brethren - that God could only be sovereign if He operates according to someone's idea of how He could be sovereign. God is sovereign independently of our theological conceptions, and should we happen to be wrong, He will still be sovereign. If God says anything is different from what I have figured out, and does something different than I think He could, who I am I to reply against God?

Remember it was Larry who made that statement. Now I think I agree with what I think he meant, but I would not choose to state it that way. Cows don't eat Bar-B-Q, cats don't fly, and man does not seek after God. It is against his sinful nature.

What does it say then? It is not that they can't do it because of this verse, but that this verse is given to explain that they can't. But it's certainly not the only verse. One of many is John 6:44, which we've mentioned before - "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." Even if one accepts the fact that all men are drawn, as you believe, also using John 12, still it remains that something must happen before any man can come to Christ - the Father must draw him. So naturally, without this drawing, he cannot come, just as Jesus said.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that this passage only represents what a child of wrath says against the children of God. Is that correct? On what basis? In context Paul is quoting this passage from the Psalms to support his argument that all have sinned. Notice verse 9 leading in to verse 10: "No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one..." He also follows this up with "all have sinned" in verse 23. Notice the original passage in Psalms 14 also - "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." This is not a description of what the sinner says about those who seek God. It is about what God saw when He looked from heaven on the children of men. He saw they were all gone aside. Sometimes the little word "all" is not just as problematic for the non-Calvinist. All are in this natural state, don't do good, and don't seek after God. Only with the exception of John 6:44 will they come.

I think the born again child of God has a warring in his members between the new creature and the old nature (e.g. Gal. 5:16-17, "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."). But I don't think your characterization of Calvinistic regeneration necessarily follows one another logically.
Thanks.

 

The original poster said he understood "Limited Atonement" to mean..."Christ died for the sins of the whole world, in that any who believe in Him will be saved."

No, that's not quite the whole story. Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for those they call 'the elect' because God predestined and Decreed their salvation before the foundation of the world. And because they think faith is not a condition for salvation, God magically imputs these 'elect' he died for with faith. And the rest of needy mankind...sort of like God said 'to hell with them.'

This gets really convoluted but Calvinism says God didn't base his choice to send a man to heaven or hell on whether or not the man would one day put his faith in Jesus. They don't know what God basis his choices on in regard to salvation/damnation for any particular man so they call it a 'mystery.' (like we're supposed to believe something they say when we can't check it out against the Bible to see if it is so?)

Don't get caught up in contrary doctrines, it'll sink ya.