John 10:28-29 - No snatching

rc;
For a person who is going for a Dr in theology you my friend have already flunked the course.

My Bible does not say this does yours?
This is what my Bible says;
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
These are the rantings of a fool. For a Bible scholar you sure don't read the Bible very often do you? Notice it doesn't say man cannot seek God. It is past tense and says "there is none that seeketh after God." This is not saying that no one ever had sought God or that no one will ever seek God does it.
It is rather ignorant to assume that man cannot seek God based on this scripture. In fact Men have sought God since he first learned to converse with God Adam and Noah Did and so did all of Israel. To say man does not seek God today is just as inaccurate because this is what I'm doing at this moment in prayer for you that I might show you His light.
Everyone of your post is condemning and critical of everyone who disagrees with you. You do not speak with Love in Fact I feel you hate everyone who you disagree with it seems that hatred just drips from you post. You need to get rid of that critical spirit you have with in because the Holy Spirit is a loving spirit and you have no love.
May Christ Shine His Light On You;
Mike

 

ILL ... wow! You are starting to get into the TENSE of the text? Well that shows you now have 1 of the 6 laws of hermeneutics down.

Oh... by the way.... it helps if you start stating things as fact, you might want to do your homework first. I know your in hermeneutics training so I'll be light on you this time....

no man SEEKS after God, no not one....

SEEKS info is this: verb participle PRESENT active nominative masculine singular

Just because I criticize doesn't mean it's not in love. If I hated you I wouldn't be posting that's for sure. Though this is leisure for me and fun, I would not spend it on those I hate.

But how loving is it of you to deceive and say tell me something that is not true? You stated something was in the past tense and it wasn't. Is it loving to deceive?

Maybe it seems like hatred because it's making you upset? Truth has a way of doing that to those who "kick against the gaods".

 

Me thinks you miss interpret the scripture here. Those of whom Jesus says "I never knew you" are not those who have lost faith, because Jesus does not receive them, It is those who claim faith but have no works that validate the faith. It is the "slothful servant", the "Lazy no goods" and those who claim faith but do nothing "out of faith".

There are many who know how to "manipulate" the power of faith! and they are the ones with whom Jesus is not impressed.

 

Wes,
I think you are misinterpreting me.
Christ can only say I never knew you to those who have never at any time been saved, regardless of what works or good deeds they may have done. I think many of our Catholic friends will fall into this category.

My point was that if a Christian was capable of losing his salvation, Christ would not be able to say this to him.
A Christian can backslide and possible lose rewards but that doesn't negate his salvation.
(1 Cor. 3:14-15, 5:5)

 

Michael,
Salvation is based on FAITH ALONE. If one has Faith at any time in his natural life, he is saved. If one, for whatever reason, stops believing or denies faith in God, that person will not be SAVED because what He had, he lost! God does not save those who die the natural death lacking faith in GOD! Those who do have faith when they die the natural life "pass from death into life"!

But, you say that is not the meaning of "pass from death into life". Why not? What is the requirement for passing from death into life? Is it not FAITH?

Now, if one can believe something, then later stop believing it, one can believe in Jesus then later stop believing in Jesus. AND THAT is the point!

 

Salvation is based on GRACE alone. THROUGH faith.

Hope you don't stop having faith in heaven or choose to sin... what will happen to that almighty freewill then?

ILL,
How's that "Tense" school going? Found out the difference between past and present yet?

 

I also have faith in the current President, and he can truthfully say to me "I never knew you" to me.

That just doesn't mean what you think it means!

 

When are you going to prove that Grace has the power to do anything?

Grace does not come through faith! God must be behaving in accordance with HIS Grace in order for mortal man to come to faith in God!

 

It doesn't say "We are saved by faith THROUGH grace" does it? Let the text say what is does.

Faith is a RESULT of the soveriegn election of God ACCORDING to His grace.

 

Only if you read it backwards. In order to do that you have to twist it around.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Only if you read it backwards.

That's what you are doing. BY grace, through faith. Not by faith through grace.

Faith is something that hopes correct?

No man outside of God BY His grace put upon him will desire for that hope. NO faith.

No man seeks after God no not one.

 

No Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for! The EVIDENCE of things not seen.

Let's presume for a moment that you have never heard of "paradise" (a pseudonym for something, or some place). You obviously would have no faith in such a thing then as paradise. However, if you neighbor came to you and related a wonderful story of this truly unbelieveable place with fabulous experiences and told you that some day you could go there, and IF you believed your neighbor. You would begin to HOPE (form substance, conceptions, ideas, imaginings, etc.) to go to paradise. The more you hope to make such a trip, the more desire you build within you to know more about it and you begin seeking ways of getting to go. When you discover that you really can get there by "some means", then you begin to show FAITH (the substance of your hopes), that you too will get there. Then you begin to inform others (the evidence) of what you have hopes in. So you are now exhibiting strong faith. First hope then evidence! EVERYBODY does this! But No, everybody does not have faith in God or heaven or everlasting life, even after they've heard of it.

Believe what you will, but you would be wrong here too! Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

 

Paul disagrees with you.

Another Calvinist myth shot down! According to Paul God made it so that we would seek after him, and that we would find him!

 

This is just a factual statement saying God ORDAINED things in order that man would seek Him. That doesn't prove anything. It doesn't say God did this so man in his naturual state would seek Him. It just says so that man will seek Him. It does not exclude the prerequisite that man in his natural state CAN NOT seek Him.

It's funny how you say that Paul disagrees with me... Paul wrote that ... so I guess you believe that Paul is disagreeing with himself! Or maybe your sotierology is messed up.

This is easy. God ordains things for man to seek Him. Big deal. This falls in line perfefctly with what Paul says everywehre.

No Man seeks after God. (Romans 3.11)
God ordains the elect to seek (Acts 13.48)
God Calls (Rom 8.30)
God regenerates man. (Born again)
Man believes (faith)

See Wes this verse does nothing against the Churchs historical Ordo Salutis.

YOU on the other hand have Paul Contradicting himself. (God for that matter)... You've even agreed that it contradicted in your post. The proplem is, it doesn't contradict my sotierology, just yours.

 

Oh I didn't know!

But please bear with me while we investigate the scriptures you posted, and the additional two comments, the one about regeneration and the one about believing.

rc, you say,

That is a quote out of the OLD testament SAID to and about the Jews.

Paul goes on to say,

Poof! another FALSE DOCTRINE shot down by Scriptures!

rc, YOU POSTED,

Just some questions for you.

Who did God call according to HIS purpose?
What is the purpose?
Whom did God mold to the PATTERN OF HIS SON?
Whom did God give his Glory to?

The answers:
John 17

Like I told you before, Romans 8 is validated in John 17. Romans 8:28-30 is Paul talking about the Apostles who are "the elect" of God from before the foundation of the world.

Since you are so obviously wrong in this matter, is should be apparent everyone reading this, that you completely wrong about regeneration prior to belief!

 

Sorry,
I have thousands of years of teachers on my side with Chapter nine. All you have on your side is your pride. I keep on telling you that you commit exegetical suicide by trying to reference John 17 to everything... it's just not wise or correct. You are putting your presuppositions before hermeneutics, which is just plain exegetical error.

 

I have not made that connection to Genesis 11:11!

 

You might as well... you can find excuses to put the twelve anywhere! I suppose they were on Noah's ark also.

 

Truth is rc, If you would open your spiritual eyes, you would see the connection, but then if you did, you would not be an adherant to Calvinism, and that would take all the fun out of this BBS.

 

RC, you seem to show in your replies, that you have some knowledge of Greek. If that is so, I suggest that you read the passage in Acts 13 in the Greek, and also with the aid of a good Greek grammar. You will notice, that the word "ordained" is NOT is the active voice, but rather in the middle. The thrust of the passage shows, thae the Jews, not God, considered themselves unworthy of eternal life, which would give the meaning in the middle voice, something that they did; likewise, when the gentiles heard that the Gospel of Salvation was for them, they rejoiced and "enrolled themselves" on to God's side. No one who know any Greek grammar can argue with this

As for the true reading of John 10:28, the Greek text literally has it: "I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never, never perish for ever", something that is not brought out any any of the English versions. The use of the double negative, coupled with the phrase, "for ever", shows that the safety of the beliver in the hand of Jesus is complete!