John Wesley's Deceit

I'll quote from Toplady's "More Work For Mr. John Wesley" .

Say rather , that some men are permitted to live and die in their sins , the consequence of which is condemnation .- As to the horrid parallel , which Mr. W . labours to run between the Most Hight God , and one of the most abandoned emperors that ever disgraced the Roman diadem ; I have only this to remark : 1. That the writer , who is capable of taking such blasphemous liberties with the adorable Sovereign of heaven and earth , must have drank deep indeed into that satanic spirit which opposeth and exalteth itself above all that is called God . 2. The whole parellel is copied almost verbatim , from an old book , first published in the reign of Charles 1 . A.D. 1663 , by one Samuel Hoord , alias Hoard , alais Hord ( for I find him bearing all these names in print ) . He was a clergyman of the Laudean faction ; and , by way of cover for his apostacy ( having been , originly , a zealous maintainer of the xxxix Articles ) , printed the above-mentioned treatise , commonly known by the title of 'God's Love to Mankind." From which treatise , Mr. Wesley borrowed his whole paragraph concerning God and Tiberius ; but without giving it as a quotation , or dropping the least hint to his readers that the comparison was none of his own . Nothing comes amiss to this gentleman . Not content with assaulting the living , he even rifles the dead : and , rather than not rifle at all , robs them of their very blasphemies ... For the refutation of that particular calumny against God , which Mr. Wesley's plagiarism has adopted for his own , I shall content myself with referring the reader to the treatises of those great and eminent champions of grace .

 

Yes , BB , you are wrong . Granted , it is noble for those who are falsely charged with things they did not do -- but in J.W.'s case he was called on the carpet for actual lies he uttered .

 

Selective Quotes= Relevant Information

Again I have to ask these same questions . Why was it wrong for Toplady to publicly condemn the actions of Wesley ? Wesley had circulated them in public ( especially in his Methodist circles ) . I do not see Matthew 18 applying here .

Again , you have not defined your unique concept of "innocent guilt" . It's like saying wetless water --- IOW , a total contradiction .

You have tried with your strength to go beyond Wesley's exoneration . You will not even admit to the historical facts regarding Wesley's culpability . You're saying in effect : "He may have made some mistakes , we all do . Stop saying mean things about him . "

Plagiarism and forgery were considered serious crimes in Wesley's day .They were deemed to be far more serious than we treat them today , especially the latter . It would be one thing in Wesley's favor that he violated the law on one occasion only , but he did it repeatedly . Does one need to "make a point" by any means as long as the goal is met ?

Yes , granted , J.W. was trying to make a point regarding his "Abridgment" . However , he did so at the expense of dispensing with the truth . If "A" makes something up which "B" totally disagrees with and yet "A" attaches "B's" name to it and releases it to the public -- that should not be excused away . It is deliberate sin . Do not white-wash it . Wesley was willfully guilty .

One of my interests is history . I never claimed to be an historian . I do not have the means necessary to satisfy your standards of historical accuracy . Notwithstanding , you have conveniently ignored all my information ( "selective quotes" ) as practically worthless . Now that's not a reasonable stance . To insist , at this late date that Wesley was not the author of "The Abridgment" is ... what's the technical term , oh yes , silly .

 

Selective Quotes = Useful Quotes

The following is from J.C. Ryle . "Toplady and His Ministry." He wrote a book about church leaders from the 18th century . He even devoted a chapter to Wesley ( all the men were Anglicans ) which was largely praiseworthy of the man . But in this extract Ryle quotes Toplady's final address in his church about two months before his death . His doctor had told him not to preach because it would put such a strain on him . But Toplady felt he had to. A.M.T. had to counteract Wesley's lie , which was that the former had denied the doctrines of grace . It reminds me of John Wycliffe . When he was in his deathbed he rose up to condemn the lies of the friars .

It having been industriously circulated by some malicious and unprincipled persons that during my present long and severe illness I expressed a strong desire of seeing Mr. John Wesley before I die , and revoking some particulars relative to him which occur in my writings ,--- Now I do publicly and most solemnly aver that I have not nor ever had such intention or desire ; and that I most sincerely hope my last hours will be much better employed than in communing with such a man . So certain and satisfied am I of the truth of all that I have ever written , that were I now sitting up in my dying bed with a pen and ink in my hand , relating to Mr. Wesley and the Arminian controversy , whether respecting fact or doctrine , could be at once displayed to my view , I should not strike out a single line relative to him or them .

 

Selective Quotes = Helpful Info

A clipping from "Augustus Toplady's Letter to John Wesley" . [ A.M.T's letter in this section deals with the forgery of Wesley's "Abridgment" ]

And is thus you contend for victory ? are these the weapons of your warfare / Is this bearing down those who differ from you with meekness ?do you call this binding with cords of love ? Away , for shame , with such disingenuous artifices . At least , endeavour to conceal that narrow sectarian spirit , which betrays itself more or less in almost every thing you write . Renounce the low serpentine cunning , which puts you on falsifying what you find yourself unable to refute . and , as you regard your character and the cause you espouse , dismiss those dirty subterfuges ( the last resources of mean malacious impotence ) , which degrade the man of parts into a lying sophister , and sink a divine beneath the level of an oyster-woman . Cease to fight like the French , with old nails and broken glass . Charge fairly and fire as forcibly as you can . But if you persist to employ the weapons of scurrility and falsehood , the splinters will not only recoil on yourself , but you will continue to be posted for a theological coward .

 

Selective Quotes = Important Data

The following excerpt is from Toplady -- " More Work for Mr. John Wesley" .

The very title [ i.e. J.W's "The Consequence Proved" --- Rip ] is inacccurate . The inferences , which this writer pretends to deduce , are not a consequence , but a chain of consequences . Let us see , whether this mighty consequence-drawer is able to support the consequence drawn.

The proof opens thus . "Mr. Toplady , a young bold man , lately" [ i.e. very nigh two years ago ] "published a pamphlet , and extract from which was soon after" [ i.e. about four months after ] "printed , concluding with these words ; the sum of all is this : one in twenty ( suppose ) of mankind , etc."

Mr. W's present mode of phraseolog is as pregnant with craft , as his conduct is destitute of honour . Observe : "an extract from which ," i.e. from which pamphlet : "concluding with these words --." Now , would not any indifferent [ impartial -- Rip ] reader still imagine , that "those concluding words" were actually "extracted" from the "pamphlet" itself ? And yet , nothing can be wider from fact . The "words" which he insinuates to have been "extracted," were not extracted from the pamphlet , but spun from his own daring invention . What shall we say of a man , who first hatches blasphemy , and then fathers it on others ? Nay , who adds crime to crime , by indirectly persisting in the falsehood , even after the falsehood has been detected and publicly exposed ? His forehead must be petrified , and quite impervious to a blush .

 

Selective Quotes = Vital Facts

The following piece is from Toplady's "More Work for Mr. John Wesley" .
[ Again , he is refuting the notions of Wesley's "The Consequence Proved" -- Rip ]

I have followed Mr. John through his first pair of consequences ; which ( together with their fabricator ) have shewn to be utterly devoid of judgment , strength , and truth . Let me now advert to the third pretended consequence :

III . "The reprobate shall be damned , do what they can."

One would almost imagine , that none but a reprobate could be capable of advancing a position so execrably shocking . Surely , it must have cost even Mr. Wesley much , both of time and pains , to invent the idea , and to find suitable language for its clothing ! This , however , I make no scruple to declare , that be his inventions easy or laborious , few men's invention ever sank deeper into the despicable , launched wider into the horrid , or went farthur in the prophane . The satantic guilt of the person , who could excogitate , and publish to the world , a position like that ; baffles all power of description , and is only to be exceeded ( if exceedable ) by the satanic shamelessness which dares to lay the black position at the door of other men . -- Let us examine , whether any thing , occurring in Zanchius , could furnish this wretched defamer with materials for a deduction so truly infernal .

 

Selective Quotes Are Necessary

What follows is yet another example of Wesley's ways . This is another part of Toplady's "More Work for Mr. John Wesley" .

That I do not wrong Mr. Wesley , in asserting this , shall be proved from his own words : or rather , from the words of Mr. Robert Barclay , the celebrated Quaker ; from whose apology for that people , Mr. Wesley ( without mentioning the name of his author ) hath pirated a little Tractate , price 2d. and to which he hath given the title of Serious Considerations on Absolute Predestination .

 

RB: " Mr. Toplady's own testimony is not going to be enough to make an impartial judgment on the matter . That is obviously one-sided ."

Well RB , we should hear the testimony of John Wesley on the issue . However , he was too cowardly to fess-up to his sin . You'll notice that he did not acknowledge any wrong-doing . No one in his camp admitted it either . They issued no denials . Toplady's Letters hit the proverbial nail on the head . If Wesley would have been in a real church communion he would have rightly been excommunicated . But he ran the show . Actually he perjured himself when he went against his vows to the Church Of England . Of the 39 Articles he severely revised 15 of them and did no real service to the rest . Why would a minister of the Gospel go against that which he affirmed in the first place ? Is that honorable ? Of course "Presbyterians" like Finney and Sunday did the same thing .

Thanks for the link RB . Doug Wilson and I are on the same page , if you haven't noticed . His article "Wrestling With Wesley" is well-worth reading . You'll observe that he does not doubt Wesley's lies against Toplady in this matter .

Wilson quotes James 3:1 which says that to whom much is given -- much is required . In that respect Wesley was "sorely deficient." Wilson also names Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 as sections of Scripture which chide Wesley for failure in church leadership requirements .

From Wilson : "The saintliness of someone like John Wesley is not something many Christians are prepared to question ... In this case , I believe there has been a whitewash of history , and I believe the interests of truth demand that we all quit playing the lying game ."

D.W. went on to state that there are "common assumptions about Wesley's saintliness.." . I have a high regard for Ryle, Dr.Lloyd-Jones , Jim Packer , Iain Murray & Co. They praise J.W. very much despite some 'failings' on the latter's part . But Wesley was supposed to be a minister of the Gospel ! A minister of the Gospel should not be characterized as a deceiver . Yet that is what he was on a number of occasions -- it just came to a head in Toplady's case . A.M.T. called out John Wesley for the liar he was .

And I would agree with Mr. Wilson's assessment that Wesley "preached a muddled and deficient gospel." I would concur with Whitefield's belief that Wesley preached another Gospel . I think Wesley's message falls under the condemnation of Galatians 1:8,9 . But this particular aspect doesn't rightly pertain to the theme of this thread .

Wilson cites a Wesley scholar by the name of Stanley Ayling who wrote :"John Wesley" in 1979 . The following is from page 270 in S.A.'s work . ' He [ Toplady -- Rip ] had a legitimate grievance ..." . That's referring to Wesley's unjust behavior toward Toplady in the matter under discussion .

I have not been gleeful in exposing Wesley's lies . I think there has been a marked neglect regarding the incident . Toplady's name has been besmirched and Wesley's name has been raised up . In the interest of truth and historical interest I have pursued this subject . However , Wilson gives a sobering reminder to me that I should heed Philippians 3:18 . He did not use the NLTse , but I will . Here it is : " For I have often told you before , and I say it again with tears in my eyes , that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ ." I admit that I haven't approached this whole thing with an appropriate sadness . The events of the 1770's which I have described do grieve me -- I am not at all happy about those things which I have related . Nevertheless , if I have not typed anything not in a suitable frame of mind for this consideration of the W/T subject-- I am sorry .

Regarding BB's posts ; I have applied the principle of Proverbs 26:5 ( not Proverbs 26:4 ) . He has been sloppy ( I'm being charitable here ) or misinformed at best .

In post #57 he confuses Johnson with Toplady and of course gets the whole thing conflated .
In post# 42 he inists that what I had posted up to that point was just Wesley's word against Toplady's . BB was inclined to stick with Wesley on the matter because Wesley had the larger following of the two he supposed . Now that is irrational thinking in action .
In post# 26 BB said :"He [ Toplady -- Rip ] may have wanted fame at the expense of Wesley and would say anything to get it ." That kind of stuff issuing from BB's keystrokes are disgraceful and shows no inkling of Toplady's virtues .
In post#38 he states that it is okay for friends to plagiarize one another ( in his assumption that Wesley and Toplady were really friends) .

The foregoing is just a taste of the kind of stuff BB comes up with . It's even worrst on the C vs. A threads . I decided to deal with the nonsense head-on here .