Nuts For Arminians To Crack

no, you have not read what I have said. In the Greek, "πιστεύσαντες", it is "on your believing", and not "after"

"“On believing”:—better than “after believing,” because the Gr. does not emphasize sequence. It rather combines into one idea the facts of the faith and the seal. In experience, the latter might markedly follow the former; but not necessarily in the Divine ideal" (The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

"on your believing (terminus a quo, as ἀκούσαντες above. Not to be taken with ἐν ᾧ (as = εἰς ὅν, an usage unknown to St. Paul), for see Act_19:2, εἰ πνεῦμα ἅγ. ἐλάβετε πιστεύσαντες;—‘did ye receive the Holy Ghost when ye believed?’" (Henry Alford, Greek Testament)

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" (NIV)

"And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago" (NLT)

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (ESV)

"And in Him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, having heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Berean)

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (NASB)

"In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed" (CSB)

"When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." (HCSB)

"You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," (ISV)

"And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)--when you believed in Christ--you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit" (NET Bible)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (ASV)

"in whom ye also [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Darby)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (ERV)

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise" (YLT)

"In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," (RSV)

"in him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit" (NRSV)

"And in Him you Gentiles also, after listening to the Message of the truth, the Good News of your salvation--having believed in Him--were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (Weymouth)

 

Yes, upon believing we are sealed with the Spirit. I misspoke when I said after. We are immediately sealed by the Spirit. My point was that we are not sealed in this manner BEFORE believing. I should have said NOT SEALED UNTIL BELIEVE. Just as hearing LEADS to believing, believing results in sealing

Hear the Gospel

Drawn

Repent and Believe

Sealed by the Spirit

More of a logical than a chronological order

 

The Calvinist and Non-Calvinist debate will continue until the end of time. At the end of the day, it's all about perspective. (those are my two cents)

 

what do you think of "drawn to hear the Gospel"?

 

ryr

That's a good point. Often God does preparation on the heart even before a person hears the gospel.

 

God predestined both Judas and Pharoh to be the failed enemies against His plans, correct?
if God intended to death of jesus to save all sinners, all would be. Period.

 

the Father draws to Jesus to get saved those sinners whom His death on Cross atoned for...

 

The scriptures show to us that the lost/unsaved do indeed keep on resisting God, but there are no scriptures that show the saved resist him and not get saved!

 

Incorrect. No, because you have destroyed FREE WILL!

 

you would be more honest if you forgot your bias and stuck to what the Bible actually teaches!

 

I suggest reading 1 John all in one shot. From 1 John 1 to its conclusion 1 John 5. Its not long. Even better listen to a audio book maybe on youtube


1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


Through the whole epistle we are told of two groups those with God and those against God and how those against God make God a Liar.

To qualify as being against God and making God a Liar they must NOT BELIEVE a particular thing. The testimony that God has given concerning his Son.

"the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son"

What is the testimony?

11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.


So what I am hearing here on this thread is they have not made God a liar at all. These are HONEST REPROBATES.

They don't believe Jesus Christ is their redeemer. Therefore Jesus truly is not, then they are telling the TRUTH and not a LIE.


But scripture says quite plainly, "the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar"

Those who REFUSE christ are LIARS, They believe in a lie. They DON'T believe Jesus died for them.

 

Only God has real free will, as all of us are slaves to sin before saved, correct?

 

So jesus did not state that the father drew the Apostles unto Him, so not all were given to Him, just some?

 

No when you sin it is your fault. You had perfect choice and opportunity to do exactly the right thing to do and specificly chose to rebel and sin against God.

YOUR FAULT,


Sin nature = excuses
Total deprave = excuses
Robot will = excuses

Time to REPENT and actually take responsibility instead of passing the buck on something God didn't do for you.

 

What do you mean? Tons of lost people got saved in the Bible!

Second point is correct, albeit redundant, though.

 

Those who believe are given to Jesus by the Father

 

What does Jonathon Edwards say about free will?

 

Sin nature is not an excuse to sin, it is a recognition that we need the Grace of God FROM FIRST TO LAST. It is a recognition that without Christ we are without strength, without hope, without life. Salvation changes all that though

 

Christ tasted death for every man. But God intended it to save those who believe. God did not intend it to save all, because He foreknew not all would be saved. But that does not mean their unbelief and hardness of heart was His Will for them. The death of Christ saves those who believe AND leaves those who reject with greater guilt and judgement

 

So they were reconciled to God before they came to Jesus? I think it is the death of Jesus atones the sinners who come to Jesus, who of course were first drawn by the Father.