Old Testament Law

Sigh, you either see it or you don't. I am not blinded by covenant theology, so I am not afraid of leaving the law.

You might "answer" my questions, but they aren't correct answers. Paul as an INSPIRED writer looking back on his life said that he was blameless as touching the law. Go figure.

Anyway, if the righteousness of the law is the same as the righteousness of God, then why, pray tell, are we told that we are NOT under the law, but under a different administration of righteousness? After all, if the law was the righteousness of God, we should all still be under it. Alas, we aren't, any of it.

 

Now your task is to show us how my answers are wrong. For example. You said the law never forbade lust. I said the Tenth Commandment forbids lust. Now your next task would be to show how the Tenth Commandment doesn't forbid lust.

You said Christ revised the commandments. I said He didn't. Since we're agreed that love is the fulfillment of the law, your task would be to show us how one can love his neighbor and at the same time harbor ill will toward him.

Context, James. Context. You will see that's NOT what he said at all. This same writer said in Romans 7 that he was NOT blameless as touching the law.

Because the law brings a curse on all who do not live up to its righteous requirements. To be saved we need a mediator who can first, satisfy its righteous requirements; second, satisfy its justice by taking its curse upon Himself; third, have the power to raise Himself back to life; and fourth, impute all He accomplished to us.

And here you go again with another non sequitur. How does it follow? What Scripture supports that premise. We are not under the law for justification, but the righteousness of the law is now fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, Rom. 8.

Let me give you an example. Your father is a potter. An extraordinary potter. He made a vessel for the purpose of storing drinking water. But he also gave it sentience and mobility. It was quite content to store water for your household.

But your father also had an enemy who, because of his hatred for him, tricked the vessel into going outside where it stumbled and fell fracturing itself.

It's still required it to hold water, but it cannot. Try as it might to fill itself up, the water simply runs out through the fracture onto the ground. The vessel begs that it be put to its former use. Your father then gives it a commandment and says, If you can store water, then you will have a place in my house. If not, then you will be dashed into pieces and thrown into the ditch.

So what is the end of that vessel? If left to itself with just the commandment, it will be destroyed.

But your father loves that vessel, and not being willing that it should perish, prepares another vessel for you to inhabit. As a vessel full of water you go out to the former vessel, take its fracture as your own. Your father then dashes you to pieces and tosses you into the ditch. But because you have your father's power, you bring the pieces back together again. You visit the former vessel, impart your wholeness to it, fill it with water and bring it into your father's house.

The commandment was no less than what was required to live, but the commandment itself had no power to give life.

We are not saved by Christ's righteousness. He has always been righteous. We are saved by the offering of His life. The commandment is indeed holy and just and good (Rom. 7:12), the very righteousness of God. But the Cross is the power of God to salvation.

Praise God. It would kill us if we were.

So now you see what I'm looking for. It's one thing to say my answers are wrong. It's quite another to show how they're wrong. And BTW, labels aren't evidence. You can call me a covenant theologian all you want. That doesn't answer my arguments.

C'mon, James. Don't chicken out on me now.

 

We were just getting to the good parts, and he bails.

 

if ye love my father keep his commandments

If you follow the follow the following command >>LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, ALL YOUR MIGHT, AND ALL THY MIND.

>>LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

if you keep those two it would be impossible to break the commands...
if you do mess up God knows your just made of dust and like grass it withers away, so repent and all is well again

Remember even when we leave God he will NEVER NEVER I MEAN NEVER LEAVE us.. i really seen this in my life...

but like all humans i still deal with problems.. i need to quit cigarettes and read his word more and know it better and pray more for Iam a infant in Christ still..

Peace be with you brothers and sisters
PEace to the Lord God Jesus, Yahweh and the Holy Spirt

 

Aaron, I am only posting this to let you know that I have decided to take some time off the Baptistboard. I enjoy a good debate. However, I am wasting too much time going over the same thing all the time. Although we haven't debated this issue before (that I know of), I have with others. It is time to move on, catch up on my own personal studies, and reflect on the usefulness of the baptistboard to me personally. I am finding too much delight in some of these threads, when I should seek to instruct.

Take heart, you have great insight into the music issue, and enjoy your family. Talk to you later, maybe.

 

I'm often away from the BB. It's called life. Enjoy!

 

Anyone who holds DD's views care to pick this up?

 

I am not bothering to read everything he wrote here, but his position that the "Ten Commandments" were given only to the Jews is correct. 8 1/2 of them do apply to Christians because the NT repeats those.

Instead of making a lengthy post, I can sum it up by saying that Christians of the New Covenant are obligated only to New Covenant scripture. Trying to instigate OT requirements such as circumcision, the sabbath, and "storehouse tithing" are ultra vires to any church.

 

I am simply amazed by the responces of a few of you

Is knowitallish Arrogance Christ like

maybe I need some discipleing in this area

 

What is the 1/2? I know that the sabbath commandment is not repeated in the NT (which would be one), but what is the 1/2 that you are referring to?

 

The 2nd, which says to not make "any likeness of anything." That would rule out photography, engineering drawing, computer icons, among other things. We are obligated to not worship things-- indeed that part is expounded-- but we are not forbidden from making "any likeness" of something as long as we do not worship it.

 

The moral laws, or the "righteousness of the law", is universal. Or do you mean to say that the heathen nations who worshipped other gods in violation of the first four commandments weren't doing anything wrong?

Was it ever right for anyone at any age to dishonor his parents, kill, steal, lie, commit adultery or covet the wives and possessions of his neighbors?

The NT fulfillment of the Fourth Commandment is treated at length in Matthew 12 and Hebrews 3-4. Besides, the Sabbath was instituted at Creation as was every tenet of the Decalogue, not at Sinai. So sabbath-breaking is a moral issue, not a ceremonial one.

Where I'd like you to take up is with DD's assertion that Christ revised the Ten Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount. You'll have to scan a couple of pages back.

Paul said that ALL Scripture is profitable for reproof and instruction in righteousness. Here you say NOT all Scripture. Just the NT. How do you justify that premise?

 

It would not rule any that out, since it didn't prohibit Moses from making a brass serpert, or Bezaleel and Aholiab from engineering and drafting patterns to make cherubim statuettes for the lid of the Ark of the Covenant or weave the likenesses of cherubim into the tapestries of the tabernacle.

Neither did it prohibit Solomon from making plans for the second temple. What? Do you think these jews just started stacking stones on top of each other and it just worked out? What of the twelve oxen under the sea (the temple's answer to the brass laver of the tabernacle)?

Did God shun the second temple? No, he sent fire from heaven to ignite the burnt sacrifice and took his place in the holy of holies.

The prohibition in the Second Commandment was making the likeness of anything for the purpose of worshipping it.

[ March 03, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Romans 14:5,6; Colossians 2:16. Are you in favor, by Old Testament law, of stoning a person to death for gathering wood on the sabbath (Numbers 15)?

As you are trying to put words in my mouth, I will say that scripture as a whole is good for reproof and instruction, and actually the OT is all that Paul was referring to, as the NT was at that time in bits and pieces along the eastern Meditarranean world. If you hold the position that any passage of scripture is good for reproof and instruction, try a few samples here: I Chronicles 2:31; Ecclesiastes 2:6; Song of Solomon 4:1d.

 

oops. double post.

 

Alcott, you didn't read the assignment. We who have entered into rest have ceased from our own labors, as God did from His. Heb. 4:10

Question: How, under the law, did the priests "profane" the sabbath and remain guiltless? Matt. 12:5

That's not what you said. You said, and I quote, "Christians of the New Covenant are obligated only to New Covenant scripture." How was anyone to take that? In fact, you'll have a tough time convincing anyone, me especially, that isn't what you meant.

I hold the position that Paul instructed us to hold. He said all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, reproof and instruction in righteousness. Alcott's inability to glean from a particular passage does not nullify Paul's admonition.

Enough of the subterfuge. Are you of the opinion that the rightousness of Christ is higher than the righteousness commanded by the law?

 

Noone ever had to keep the commandments in order to be saved. The children of Israel in the wilderness were told to "look and live," believers today are told to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The law convicts - if we ignore it it has even more effect.

But if we love our neighbor we fulfill the commandments (Rom 13:10)

Paul said that the law is holy in Rom 7:12, spiritual in vs. 14. If its spiritual then it is still of effect. It convicts! It instructs.

What was done away with in Christ was the ceremonial law. The only part of the ceremonial law that will ever be observed again towards God with any recognition from him is the Feast of Tabernacles and he will be here anyway thus that is more or less a moot point.

But the killing of sheep and goats and birds is over. Christ fulfilled the law when he died on the cross. In Mt 5:17-19 he says:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Note the phrase "til all be fulfilled" that does not refer to his work on the cross. That refers to when the totality of Bible prophecy is finished.

Here is another portion of scripture that caught my eye in Mt 5:

21Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

He didnt say that once he had been put on the cross that this would end. Thus anyone that has hatred in their heart for others - Christ says that they are in danger of the judgement (and we know that this means at the Judgement Seat of Christ for believers)!

Jesus on earth was a visible picture of the law. He fulfilled it, loved it and endorsed it.

But he didnt want us to sacrifice calves and goats anymore.

Paul said it all for me when he said that we were under the law of love.

And John endorsed this when he spoke in his epistles about that if we say that we love one another but hate our brother how dwelleth the love of God in us!

As a matter of fact it is impossible for a person that is full of hatred continually, over and over again to be saved until they will deal with the hatred. I am talking about a habit of hating. We may fall into hatred but we sure wont be comfortable with it (whom the Lord loves he chastens).

So the law is still important - and holy according to scripture (Rom 7) and spiritual (Rom 7 again).

If its spiritual then its not of this world. And Christ said that not one jot of tittle would pass from the law until all be fulfilled - the "all" means until after the final judgement. After then the law will no longer be needed because all will be judged or with Christ. Thus all evil put away (amen!) and no more need for a law.

But its still good for us to know what the law says.

The love and law are both important topics.

One fulfills the other but godly love is NOT ignorant of scripture! Right?

We often hear of love being taught that we can do our own thing. This is surely not so. Love works via knowledge. We cannot love the world anymore because we know that that is a carnal love.

And we cant say that we love God if we are breaking the law!

So someone inevitably brings up Rahab and the spies. That she lied. No, she didnt break God's law when she hid them. She loved God and served him.

Now contrast that with Abram and Sara. Abram lied when he said that Sara was his sister.

Why? Because one account was of love (Rahab) and the other of FEAR!

I John 4:18 There is no fear in love but perfect love casteth out fear because fear hath torment.

Finally, John told us that God wanted us to keep his commandments:

I John 5:1-4

We keep his commandment when we love God and love his children according to knowledge and wisdom.

I dont put before my brother a stumblingblock because I love him. If I know that a brother has had a TV addiction I cover the thing up when he comes to my house! Or put it in another room!

When it all comes down to it Christians can enjoy life like they never did before even when its through tribulation because they have the joy of the Lord in their heart ... when they are doing his will which means that they are NOT breaking his law. But they dont have to really think hard on it - its a no brainer that we should not hate one another or steal from each other or covet our friend's wives, lawnmower, house, golf clubs, car, new job, paycheck, etc.

Or curse our parents! Or lie with one another in adultery.

Have these commandments been done away with? Surely not. But we never even have to worry about breaking them if our heart is right with God!

Say, its sure a good thing to dwell with believers in love. And read the scriptures which are able to make us wise unto salvation! What a wonderful thing it is to be born again.

But we must deal with the old man daily. If we love God and keep his commandments (love his law) then keeping them is a snap. But let our flesh hold sway and its a mess for sure.