Original Sin and Imputed Sin

I neither contradict the Scriptures or misunderstand the Trinity. Do I fully comprehend the mystery of the Triune nature of God? No, and I expect I will not in this lifetime. You response in that the Scriptures say He was made a little lower than the angels, does in no wise mean He somehow ceased to be God, lost the divine essence or forsook the divine attributes.

By my statement above, to which you responded, as poor as it may be, it was meant to be inline with my statement of faith:

"The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty."

"In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him."

 

I am editing my first sentence because it was a bit reactionary. While your cartoon illustration makes no sense to me, I am curous why you choose to take on what seems to me to be such a mocking and scoffing tone toward those who are brethren in Christ, born again children of God, but differ with you on some points of doctrine?

Also, what do you think you contributed to God's salvation of His people? How did you help God save you? Also, since you think you understand the timing, manner, nature, et. of everyone that is born again, please explain it to us "ignorant" calvinists. We reckon that the wind blows where IT wishes, and we hear the sound of it, but we do not know whence it comes or where it goes, so is everyone who is born again. Perhaps you have some other light on this subject?

 

Well put. I love the original languages. :thumbs:

 

Explaining the meaning of Heb 2:7 and 2:9

-skypair

While the previous response of mind had answer to skypair in clarifying my orthodox views on the doctrine of the Trinity, it seemed good to me to write somewhat concerning the Scripture skypair was referring to:

Hebrews 2:7 "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:"

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

It should become plain by the Scripture that this statement has reference to the humanity of Christ, not His deity, which can never be diminished as God cannot cease to be God. What does it mean then that Christ was made a little lower than the angels?

Christ was born under the Law, which was given by angels, who also was able to suffer infirmities even unto death, unlike the angels. Indeed, this is what the Scriptures declare plainly here in verse 9 that He was made a little lower than the angels "for the suffering of death" having reference to the incarnation, the Body which God the Father prepared for him.

As we often call this Christ's humiliation, not in a negative sense, in the sense that He humbled Himself, taking upon Himself flesh and being found in the fashion of man, which thing according to the glory of the flesh is less than an angel, we understand Christ was made a little lower than the angels.

The main point being, which Scripture itself gives us, the true sense and understanding being the suffering of death, which angels are not subject to, and in this respect be lower, but now being exalted above all things, men and angels.

 

Good morning brother. What I believe this question relates to, and is the same as, is the often asked question regarding the sincerity of the Gospel call in light of God's election of particular persons.

It should be evident to all, both Calvinists or otherwise, that the call of the Gospel is universal. There are, for certain, some extreme calvinist views that may differ, but we are speaking of historic calvinsim. Some have regarded the great Baptist John Gill in this camp, which may be, but I doubt, for example.

I think its needless to show by Scripture the plain and clear universal call of the Gospel to all nations wherein God commands all people everywhere to repent.

It is also equally true and evidenced by a large number of passages of Holy Scripture, that not all who are exposed to the call of God will be among the redeemed. The Scriptures declare that those called by the Gospel, will in fact harden their hearts, this God knowing before hand. I fail to see how the Arminian scheme is advantaged in this regard. The Arminian scheme teaches that God knew beforehand who would choose and who would not, i.e respond to the Gospel call. This theology places God's foreknowledge on the basis of what men will do by their free-will. Whether we have adopted this scheme, or the calvinist, in both cases God issues a universal call of the Gospel to all people, knowing they will not received Christ.

So under either scheme, the call is universal and would based on God's foreknowledge and election be either sincere or insincere. The calvinist believes that man's reponse to the Gospel call springs from the election of God. The Arminian believes God's election springs from man's choice. Yet in either case, God knows beforehand.

So, both the Arminian and the Calvinist could have the same calumny laid against the universal call of the Gospel being insincere. My response is simple, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14 And I regard the scope of the call greater than the acceptence.

In light of the calvinist scheme, which teaches a particular redemption, the question comes whether or not it is right for God to make a universal call to those not included in the redemption of Christ. The idea is that God is issuing a call to persons whom He has no purpose to save, but nevertheless invites. My response would be different than the old divines I think. It is plain that the Gospel invitation is universal. It is equally clear that we who believe were chosen before the foundation of the world. Recieve both because they are God's revelation to you. But stop this insane questioning of the character of God because, "Who are you O man to reply against God."

What the calvinist is saying is that the call of God to every single person is sincere and true. And what the Calvinist is saying is that if anyone is saved at all by God's calling men to repentance and faith, it is by the operation and grace of Almighty God.

It was C.H. Spurgeon that gave the illustration that written upon the front gate of heaven is "Whosover will, let him come." And when we see our sins and need of Christ, and turn in repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus and walk through, we turn and look back and see, 'Chosen from the foundation of the world."

Spurgeon also said,

"That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

The great "Prince of Preachers" as he was called, saw not in his lifetime how these two great truths of God converge. I admit that neither do I fully comprehend. But by the grace of God I will freely and unashamedly confess both.

I end with a quote from John Owen:

THe following link contains numerous quotes from calvinists on the topic I thought was very enlightening:

http://www.corkfpc.com/freeoffercalvinists.html

 

Ok, let's see here... you have:

1. Called us ignorant, and whoever else you intend to rail at.
2. You accused us of speaking evil.
3. You have insinuated and possible outright called us a liar.
4. You have called us, and others, "You people" which is belittleing

And, thus, you have lost my respect to honestly engage in any kind of dialogue with you.

RB

 

Just shows we both "react," eh?

I am a sinner, indeed.

I guess you would have had to see it.

Probably

I spread His gospel is all. He doesn't have "people" until they hear.

This is contrary to the Scripture. See John 11:51-52

I "opened the door," Rev 3:20. I grabbed hold of the "Life-ring."

This is what I have been showing these boards continually. That such theology is works based. Man adding to God's work.

For one thing, y'all somehow assume the "wind" doesn't blow on everyone. Then, when you have experienced it, it is like you don't want to follow it where it goes but follow some man who tells you where it goes. Friend, God's plan for you is unique for you. You need to take "sola scriptura" and apply it to your life now and follow where it leads. Remember, it's a relationship with GOD that you want, not with Calvin.

Stop with the stupid calumny that Calvinists follow John Calvin.

Have you read 1Cor 15:35-38 lately? God resurrects/rebirths you to a new FUTURE giving you a body as it pleases Him, not Calvin. The thing I find is that man will shape you as best he knows but the more "ancient" man's advice, the less he knows what he is doing (generally speaking).

More straw men and empty arguments from you. And in fact, I read that very passage this Sunday.

It's like this -- if you were a dead OT saint and Christ raised you, you would know his perfect will and would NOT need to follow men at all, right? Such is the Christian now only Christ communicates through scripture now rather than directly.

All men indeed are dead in their trespasses and sins. They are not alive to the things of God and need to be resurrected. What you propose is that you initiated the the ressurection (being born again) by your will. Scripture is steadfast against such teaching.

skypair

 

Hey Les,

Well brother, based on what your saying here I would have to say your far closer to a calvinist theology than another. Now please understand I use the term calvinist as a tool of convienence. I don't care for the label. I agree 100% that God forordained a group of folks would be saved too. Believers! I can't imagine a group of folks not being made up of individuals. lol

And I agree that this truth in Scripture does not destroy choice. Man must repent and believe the Gospel. The OP of this thread was to simply show by Scripture and plain reason that man does not posses, after the fall, the innate ability to do so. But that it is the goodness of God that leads him to repentence and God's grace that gives him faith. He is dead in his sins. God quickens him and He sees Christ, Christ light shines in his darkness, and he turns and follows Jesus.

All glory to God.

 

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Some people just can't help themselves. Unless you can stop these calumnies I am going to assume its impossible to dialogue with you. I follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I affirm with the Scripture the Salvation is of the Lord. And let him who glories, glory in the Lord.

I affirm that my salvation was given to me by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. I have nothing which I did not receive, again, agreeing withe Scripture. I have nothing of which I can boast. It is all of grace.

The Gospel as preached by the Arminian is a distorted Gospel, and that's why I contend earnestly for you seem to hate so much, whcih is eronously called Calvinism.

The children of God, whom you say did not exist, were known to God before the world began. In fact, the Bible says that God gave them His salvation in Christ before the world began!

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 2 Tim 1:9

Sky, you may think I have been bewitched by John Calvin, but I testify to you and all here that my conscience is bound to the Word of God in this matter.

 

1. You again are displaying your lack of knowledge or concern to understand Reformed and Calvinistic theology. And its starting to get boring hearing you misunderstand it over and over again.

2. I don't follow Calvin. I don't follow his leadership. The doctrine did not originate from John Calvin. This is my last request of you. STOP this stupid and fruitless calumny. I have no interest in "debating" someone who seems to just want to prodcuce strawmen.