Featured Pastor turned athiest

You ever read about the Samaritan woman at the well? She had five different husbands and was living with a man outside of marriage when she spoke to Jesus.

Did Jesus tell her she had to quit living with a man to get saved? Nope, he told her that if she would ask him, he would give her living water.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Now, I'm not saying Jesus condoned her sin. Anybody who reads the NT can see we are called to live a holy life. But we don't have to get better to get saved, we get saved to get better. Lots of folks get the order all mixed up.

Too many Christians spend all their time looking at their neighbor and picking out all their faults, when they should be telling folks all their sins could be forgiven if they would trust Jesus to save them.

The gospel means "good news". Telling somebody they are scum is not good news. Yes, we are all sinners, but the good news is that Jesus died for us and we can all be saved.

 

We weren't talking about the order for folks OUTSIDE the church. If you're inside the church and saying you're saved, and I don't see a changed life, then I'm absolutely going to question whether or not there has been a salvation experience.

we were talking about folks who purport to have already have come to Christ.

How could I do that without RIGHTEOUSLY passing judgment that they were still in need of a Savior and His gift of salvation?

Who said anything about telling folks they are scum? I'm a firm believer that we love folks to Christ. But if you're sitting inside the church acting like what's outside the church, then somebody needs to let you know. There has to be discipline inside the church whereby the church is DIFFERENT from the lost world. The fact that we're lacking in this area is at the crux of the OP.

 

I don't agree with this. It is EASY to find fault with others. That doesn't mean they aren't saved. Give the word of God a chance to work in their lives, it takes time, but if they keep hearing the Word, they will change.

If somebody tells me they have trusted Jesus I tend to believe them. Just because a person acts "religious" does not mean they are saved. This fellow was a preacher for 25 years, doesn't mean he was saved.

Well, there are some who wear their sinfulness like a badge. They never tire of telling you what a sinful scum, a filthy worm, a scoundrel they were. They almost seem proud of it.

I don't see Jesus preaching to people that they were scum. He seemed more to assume they were already aware of their sinfulness and offered them a cure. This is the gospel.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jesus didn't beat people over the head with how sinful they were, many times he did not even mention folks sin. People know they are sinners.

No, he told them to come to him, and he would give them rest. He didn't tell them it was hard or difficult, they don't have to become perfect to be saved. Just ASK. EASY.

 

Again, after 5, 10 15 years of the same old unregenerate behavior and nothing of the fruit of the spirit, it would be wise to question as opposed to letting someone go to hell because you were afraid to question the lack of change in their lives.

Nobody said anything about acting religious. If you tell me you've trusted JEsus, I expect to see the ove of Jesus displayed. And part of that love for Him is OBEDIENCE to His word.

5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. 1 John 2:5-6

Yes there are.

Again you're confusing how Jesus preached to those who didn't know Him as opposed to those who are supposed to already be in the Body.

You're confusing those outside vs supposed inside.

same comment as before. This wasn't about those outside the church.

 

It seems to me the blogger who quoted "ex-pastor Bruce" made it pretty clear what his specifics were:

He followed that with this so-called apostate's rant about how Christians don't live according to what the Bible teaches.

Big surprise. We don't.

Why?

That would be a really good blog if someone could suggest some answers -- and there are myriad -- to that question.

 

And we might as well admit it.

 

You need to edit I John:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. ​

 

Look, if someone tells you they believe Jesus died for their sins and rose again, and that they have trusted him as Saviour, what are you going to do? Obviously, they KNOW the gospel. Whether they have truly trusted Jesus is between them and God.

Lots of folks in the Bible didn't act like Christians, Samson is a great example. He did not honor his parents and took a non-Jewish girl to wife, then deserted her, then forcibly took her from a man that took her for a wife after he deserted her. He gambled, and killed 30 men to take their coats to settle his debt, he visited a prostitute on a regular basis.

Nobody would think Samson was saved by watching him, yet he is listed among those of great faith in Hebrews 11.

Need I remind you that David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then had her innocent husband killed in battle? Would you have believed he was saved if you had witnessed this? I seriously doubt it.

What about Solomon who took hundreds of wives and concubines, and at the end of his life built high places and groves for false gods? Yet we know he was a prophet who wrote much scripture.

You cannot tell who a Christian is by observation, and frankly, it is not your business. That is between them and God. If they profess to believe in Jesus, that is the best you can do.

Well, all I can say is be prepared for dissappointment.

Oh yeah, we've got a bunch here that boast night and day of what horrible slimy sinners they are. They think that earns them favor with God. Yes, we do have to admit we are sinners to be saved, but stressing how sinful you are does not save you unless you trust Jesus to save you.

No I am not. Jesus was KIND to sinners. It was self-righteous religious folks like the Pharisees that Jesus tore apart. You are the one who has it backwards.

Not so. If you want to see who Jesus really ripped apart, it was self righteous religious folks like the Pharisees who were always JUDGING those around them as horrible sinners. They were the "fruit counters" of that day.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee was a fruit counter like YOU. Note how he boasted of how righteous and obedient he was, and how sinful the publican was.

And he was as lost as a turkey on Thanksgiving.

The publican, who only judged himself, and cast himself on the mercy of God, was saved.

You need to read the scriptures more carefully.

 

If after 5,10, 15, 20 years, if there has been no change in their life, then I would AGAIN call into question whether or not they know Jesus. I'm not trying to coddle anyone into hell. If you know Jesus, then you ought to show some sign.

ANd I would have questioned Samson as to whether he knew Christ too. I just don't see what's so confusing here. If you know Jesus, then act like it and no one has to question whether or not you do.

You're talking singular events. I'm talking about knowing folks well enough to see if their lives ( not a single event) have changed.

I would have questioned him too as he developed a pattern of behavior.

You can't tell the heart. But the way a person lives should give you some indication as to whether or not they are following Christ.

The devil is a liar. If it was none of my business, God wouldn't have left me here to share the Gospel.

That's the best YOU can do. I'm called to make disciples and tech them to obey everything that God has commanded. So you get em to say a prayer and call it a day. I got work to do yet.

I'd be a lot more disappointed to stand before God and be told that it was clear this person didn't know Him so why didn't I point out the contrast in who he was and who God's word says he's supposed to be??

I have to remind folks that we're also Saints, victorious in Christ.

Again, if you say so. If what you say is correct, then there wouldn't have been any need to command us to make disciples and teach them to obey. There would be no need to use the word of God to teach, coreect , rebuke and train in righteousness if we weren't supposed to question whether or not somebody knows Christ.

I'm talking about supposed saved Gentiles. You're talking about OT Jews.

I'm not counting any fruit. Ain't but one fruit so there would be no need for me to count it. It's either there or it's not. And if it's not, I have it on God's authority to pint it out so that folks aren't lulled into an eternal hell just because you and those like you don't want to let folks know that their lives don't resemble anything of Christ.

And you need to seek discernment of the Scriptures that you read.:thumbs:

 

They are as follows:

1.) I'm not interested in the carping of Christ-haters. When I was younger, I used to take the accusation and verbal vomitus against Christ's sheep seriously.

I have since learned that The servants of Satan are constantly searching for ways to excuse their sin and attack the body of Christ. I do not believe in their intellectual honesty, and I care nothing for what they have to say against Christ's children.

2.) This is (like most accusations against the believers) simply a "but, but, but you people are hypocrites!!" complaint.

"Hypocrisy" is the only concern of those with no morals. It provides the godless with the chance to preen themselves over their goodness since all it takes to not be a "hypocrite" is to have no morality and no moral standards whatsoever.

Call him what you will......but Ted Bundy was no "hypocrite". He was merely a rapist and murderer.

This man is pointing out the failure of Christians to be perfect as an excuse to live a life for himself and exalt himself against the knowlege of God. Men like this are a dime a dozen...and there are probably 1,000 blogs with men just like him:

Sacrificing their children to the fires of Molech while accusing God's people of not being perfect.

I simply rejoice that he no longer poisons the pulpit in one of God's Churches.

 

The blogger probably doesn't really have any, that's why.

The blogger is falling back on a commonly used excuse that he has learned will soothe his conscience. (And he knows all too often that modern Christians will fall for it and laud him for trashing them and the God they serve). He probably has nothing but generalized accusations which cannot be verified or compared nor defended against.

For every imperfect carnal Christian he knows, he can probably point to just as many who live up-standing lives which honor Christ. He won't want to dwell on specifics....he just wants to latch onto a convenient excuse.

Were he to break down the specifics....he probably knows MANY MANY truly Godly loving wonderful Christian people. I know I do....I see them in Churches everywhere I go.

 

I got ya, another Paul Washer who spends every sermon convincing folks they are lost all over again. Oh, I've heard preachers like that before.

Oh, I'm sure you would have been certain Samson was lost, and you would have been wrong.

Samson never seemed to change, Solomon got worse in his old age.

You don't seem to understand that it is not your job to question others.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

It is not your job to judge other Christians, that is God's job.

Not always, and the examples shown have proved that.

You share the gospel with the lost. That is not the same as judging persons who profess to be believers.

Right, teach them from the word of God, it is the word of God that will work in their lives.

Again, we are talking about people who profess to believe in Jesus. If they understand the gospel, and say they have believed on Jesus, what more can you do?

The scriptures say we are like a tree planted by the rivers of water. That water is the word of God. No tree springs up to be sixty feet tall overnight, it takes MANY years.

Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

This is what folks like Paul Washer do not understand, no tree grows in a single night, it takes years.

No, to make disciples is like a husbandman who tenderly feeds and fertilizes the tree. He gives it time to grow.

Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Nevertheless, those whom Jesus ripped apart were the self-righteous religious folks who thought they were better than everyone else.

You are not counting fruit? You could have fooled me.

I didn't expect you to listen, most Lordship Salvation folks don't.

 

I love Paul Washer.

Good I don't mind being wrong about that. Could you say the same thing from your POV? I wouldn't have left him to die without sharing the loving Gospel of Jesus Christ and telling him how to be saved. You on the other hand seem to be okay chancing it and just leaving it to " well he says he is so I'm gonna leave it alone even though his life shows nothing of a Christ relationship." That's just crazy.

And I would have kept questioning his relationship and telling him how to be saved if I knew him until I saw signs of a changed life.

You don't seem to understand that it IS my job. Like I said, you sit back and coddle folks to hell even if their lives show nothing of knowing Christ. I'm gonna question it and tell them how to be saved.

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UNBIBLICAL. Scripture says just the opposite.

All the examples shown do is show that you should err on the side of them being on the way to hell.

I share the Gospel with folks who say they have been saved but whose lives show no proof too.

It's the word of God that's working when I share the Gospel.

A whole lot.

Sure does. But that tree is growing every year.

This is what you don't seem to understand is that there should be growth every year. And if there is no sign of a relationship with CHrist, then somebody better say something.

AGain, you're talking crazy. If you never say anything to anyone about their unChristlike living, how are you going to correct them to disciple them?

Jesus gave testimony that lives that don't exhibit the fruit of the spirit didn't know Him.

AIn't but one. Why would I need to count it?

Most folks who sit by and coddle folks to hell don't listen either.

 

I would have never guessed.

What are you going to do, tell the person to beg Jesus to save them over and over again the way Paul Washer did in this video? This girl told Paul Washer that she had begged Jesus over and over again to save her. Was she saved?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=devfseWA9Lw

Yes, when what they really need to hear is encouraging word that helps them grow.

No, it's not. If they tell you they know the gospel, and it sounds correct, and they tell you they have received Jesus as Saviour, what can you do?

Are you going to tell them they have to do certain works or they are not saved? What will that do? Maybe they will do what you tell them, does that make them saved?

No, scripture tells you not to judge a fellow believer.

I don't believe that someone who tells me they trusted Jesus is going to hell.

And they probably tell you they know the gospel and that they trusted Jesus already.

Yes, for people who do not know the gospel or who do but have never trusted Jesus. But if they tell you they know the gospel and have trusted Jesus, they do not need to hear the gospel, they need to hear the word so they grow.

Yes, but it takes a long time to see any growth. Likewise, it may take a long time to see a new Christian's growth.

How do you know if they have grown? They may pray MORE than you do.

I would tell them that God doesn't want them to commit that sin, but I wouldn't try to convince them they are not saved like Paul Washer does.

I never recall Jesus preaching to believers and questioning their salvation. Maybe you can show that in scripture.

I'm not coddling anyone, but if someone tells me they trusted Jesus to save them I believe them.

 

On the one hand, I see the point. We can turn others away by our actions and disobedience. On the other hand, blaming others for their conduct is a cop-out. Ultimately it's your own actions and decisions that matter. People are imperfect. The only one you can look to for perfection is God.
Aside, I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge that our behavior does have an impact on others.

 

That's why I took away any doubt.

What are you gonna do, sit around and assume they are saved even though their life shows no evidence of it and they go to hell? You tell them how to be saed just like you would anyone else.

If I've watched you for all this time and seen all the encouraging words in the world do nothing but generate an emotional response that's here today and gone tomorrow, then save it for the folks who think they aren't supposed to say anything.

I can give them what Scripture says about folks who profess to love Jesus but who do not keep His commands. I can show them why according to Scripture if certain things aren't taking place, that the word of God says TO EXAMINE yourself to see if you are in the faith.

Will you not saying anything make them saved or point them to the One Who saves?

You need to read Scripture again because that certainly is not the truth and is out of context to what Scripture says.

Doesn't matter what you believe. If they are living a life where there is no evident fruit, then folks need to stop with this "oh they say they trusted in JEsus". On any given day of the week, 80+ percent of the folks in the United States will tell you that they are Christians.

And when placed up against the standard that is God's word, it shows that either God is a liar or they are.

And how are you reaching that conclusion without passing judgment ?You're passing judgment against so called believers. Is that right or wrong?

No it doesn't. You're just assuming it takes a long time. A changed life is ALWAYS evident.

I spend time with them and observe.

Pure tomfoolery. If you're not trying to convince them they aren't saved, then you're telling them they are. And it's a dangerous thing to do. Tell folks how to BE saved.

I didn't say HE was preaching to Believers. There were many folks who thought they were believers.

Pure craziness and the coddling of folks into hell who tell you that they've trusted Christ but show nothing of a changed life as evidence.

 

There is nothing in that blog that is specific. Not even what you posted.

 

I read the article, and it seems to me that the pastor-turned-agnostic/atheist was trying to reconcile tradition with scripture, and simply couldn't.

He was bound in the shackles of confusion, unable to answer tough questions about evil and sin, supposed righteousness that still looks very evil, carnality in a supposedly righteous saint, worldliness in so many children of God.

I could once relate to his appetite for intellectualism, love of knowledge, his love for books and appreciation for scholarly authority. He wanted to have concrete answers for life's tough questions, and thought that men could adequately provide them.

I've read Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels, with their heavy appeals to the Gnosticism and all their empty rhetoric, and numerous other "scholars" with their pompous claims of authority on spiritual matters.

I'll admit that those "scholars" make some compelling arguments that appeal to intellectual pride, with the feeling that one has been enlightened above all others. But in the end, they are simply shipwrecked by empty philosophy and a prideful desire to define truth by what seems right in their own eyes

Who goes to a self professed agnostic for concrete answers? By his own admission, he has no concrete answers.


What I see in that agnostic is someone who was convinced of his Christian doctrine by men, and was not firmly grounded in truth by the Holy Spirit. Then when other men came along with seemingly better rationale, he fell headlong into the same ditch.