Featured Penal Substitution Theology and the faith of those without it

As I said before the purchase, the ransom, the sin offering ENABLED reconciliation. Christ became the propitiation, the means of salvation/reconciliation. Before Christ died, there was no way for anyone to be reconciled to God. But as our propitiationary shelter, everyone God places in Christ is reconciled. The sin burden is removed and carried away, allowing us to be united with God, at one with God.

I know you keep referencing the ECF and notable men of faith who apparently combined the purchase with the reconciliation, and you simply cannot fathom that they all were wrong. All I can do is point to scripture.

For example, you say, "Without the initial reconciliation of humanity, man cannot be reconciled." But I say where does scripture say that?

I have shown Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.
I have show Christ purchased with His blood individuals that were headed for swift destruction, thus never saved. And I have shown Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

 

I guess I'm one of those who sees them both together (propitiation, reconciliation).

The Trinity short formula is - 3 distinct persons in one divine essence. Distinct, but not separate.

So perhaps salvation is 2 distinct entities in one act of salvation.

How can we separate the two? IMO we can't. Distinct, but not separate.

HankD

 

Hi JonC, I gave the illustration of the short definition of the Trinity - Three distinct persons in one divine essence.
The Trinity is not three separate persons, that is Mormonism and is not the orthodox view of the Trinity.

Salvific Propitiation and reconciliation are not separate IMO but distinct and are intimately bound together in the person of Jesus Christ.

Personally I don't like slice and dice theology but sometimes it is indeed necessary.

HankD

 

Scripture says humanity was purchased, ransomed with His blood. Scripture does not say humanity was reconciled, past tense. You can keep asserting that fiction till the cows come home. Nothing I can say will cause you to stick with scripture. You have made up, invented, the requirement for humanity to be reconciled before individuals can be reconciled. No, what Christ became is the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world. The just for the unjust.

 

WILLIS! It makes my heart happy to know you're still around. 'I knew' there was something familiar about you....

 

Yes, HankD, both the purchase/ransom and the salvation/reconciliation are distinct parts of one thing, God's redemption plan for fallen humanity. Whoever believes into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Almost anyone (3 of the 4 soils) can believe, but only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are placed in Christ and reconciled by the washing of regeneration.

Lets return to 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. Note the two parts, first He Himself bore or carried (purchased and ransomed) our sins (included as part of the sin of the world) in His body on the cross. All that is a distinct part of the redemption plan,

Next the "so that we might" refers to what was enabled, we might if God puts us into Christ, die to sin (the circumcision of Christ) and live (we are made alive together with Christ) for righteousness (Christ).

Finally, those that had been placed in Christ and reconciled, are addressed, "for by His wounds you were healed."

 

Sir, I provided scripture that says God is reconciling the world to Himself, you did not provide scripture that says God has reconciled the world. Scripture does not say what God was doing in Christ was reconciliation of the world.

Yes, I deny God elected individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world, He elected corporately those His Redeemer would redeem when He elected His redeemer. You deny we are chosen for salvation through faith (not foreseen faith) in the truth, which puts our individual election during our lives, after we have believed.

And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. This refers to individuals that have been placed in Christ.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Here the idea is the spread of the ministry of reconciliation to the Gentiles. To claim this says the world has been reconciled is twaddle.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Again no verse says or suggests God has reconciled humanity.

Scripture again tells us what Christ accomplished by living a sinless life, He fulfilled the requirement to be the Lamb of God without blemish. He became our sin offering, the just for the unjust.

I am not sure but I do not recall if you admitted or denied that individuals are reconciled when they are placed spiritually in Christ.

 

Just thought I would throw this one in as well, in case it hasn't yet been presented:


Romans 5:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.



God bless.

 

Scripture says Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a "curse" for us. So we can add becoming a curse, becoming a sin offering, becoming the propitiation to the work Christ accomplished on the cross.

 

You keep repeating this particular mantra, but you tend to vary it from time to time. Elsewhere you wrote that Christ has become the 'propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Is there a difference in your view?.
Do you believe that the terms 'propitiation' and 'means of reconciliation/salvation' are synonymous? What do you think is the meaning of the word 'propitiation'?

I'm just trying to get my head around what you are saying.

 

You might want to translate this into English.

 

Hi Martin, I know you do not deny that Christ is the means of salvation. And you do not deny Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, all of humanity. I have posted what the Greek word family means several times. I fear you are wanting to change the subject because what Christ accomplished on the cross was not the reconciliation of all mankind.l

 

Hi Darrel, yes we discussed some translation translate the Greek word meaning reconciliation as atonement. This just confuses the discussion with some using "atonement" to refer to what Christ accomplished on the cross, and others only using it to mean the reconciliation that occurs when God puts an individual into Christ, where they undergo the washing of regeneration and are united with Christ, at one with God.