Question for Dispensationalists

Do you believe that it is possible for a person to go to hell with all their sins forgiven? If so, how is it? </font>[/QUOTE]Forgiven? Do you equate Atonement for SIN with Forgiveness of Sin? Are you saying they are the same thing? If yes, then you'd be wrong!

Atonement removed the penalty (death) of sin from mankind. The Atonement did not, as you can see, remove sinning from mankind. Man, both believer and unbeliever continues sinning! NO, we do not do so with impunity! But we do so without the penalty God established for sin when Adam sinned the first sin.

Forgiveness is what we receive when we CONFESS our sins. Forgiveness is never given indiscriminately. If it were, then it would be ineffective. It would be the same as the Pope waving his arms in blessing over the masses.

Is it possible for one to go to Heaven with all one's sins forgiven? Yes! "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 john 1:9)

 

Gene,

You said,

Rev. Finney in reflecting about his faith said,

'Just at that point the whole question of God’s salvation opened to my mind in a manner most marvelous to me at that time. I think I saw then, as clearly as I ever had in my life, the reality and fullness of the atonement of Christ. I saw that His work was a finished work; that instead of having, or needing, any righteousness of my own to recommend me to God, I had to submit myself to the righteousness of God through Christ. It was full and complete; and all that was necessary on my part was to get my own consent to give up my sins, and accept Christ. Salvation, it seemed to me, instead of being a thing to be wrought out, by one’s own works, was a thing to be found entirely in the Lord Jesus Christ, who presented Himself before me as my God and my Savior.’ From “Charles Finney” {The Great Revivalist} Barbour Publications, p. 32

It seems that Calvinists like to play the ‘indoor sport’ of calling this man of God a heretic. As you can see above your statement is an untruth, perhaps unwittingly. For men like Wesley, Finney and I anything other than Augustinian Calvinism is much closer to orthodoxy and the truth, coming from God’s Word, the Bible.

 

Let me get this straight. So do you believe that it would be possible for a person to go to eternal damnation (eternal death) even though that person's penalty (eternal death) has been removed? </font>[/QUOTE]YES! YES! YES!

SALVATION INTO ETERNAL LIFE WITH CHRIST is based on FAITH ALONE! The Penalty for sin Has been removed from us so that we can by BELIEVING IN JESUS, even on his NAME ALONE, without anything else, NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life! JESUS, the ATONER for sin, SAID SO! (John 3:16) BUT, he did not leave it at that, he further said that whoever believes in him IS NOT JUDGED! But whoever does not believe in Him JUDGES THEMSELVES by their unbelief!

What wonderful Gospel (good news)!

 

Wes.

The atonement works regardless of you or what you believe. If Jesus atoned for your sins you are atoned for regardless. The deal was made between God by God. It has nothing to do with the recipients.

The atonement is ministered to the nation of Israel by the High Priest. It has nothing to do with the individual except where said individual is excluded. 1 Sam 3:14. Apart from the exclusion orders all people in the holy nation are atoned for. All the people of the chosen nation. That is a gift God gives to His chosen to begin to make them fit for the place they are going.

That was not the question was it? Is it possible for one to go to Hell with all one's sins forgiven is the question is it not?

johnp.

 

You said,

Pastor Gale was Finney’s pastor who preached ‘old school Calvinism’ and was his mentor. Gale was his guide leading to ordination. Thank Rev. Gale. Finney criticized Gale’s sermons over the very issues that Calvinists and Arminians consider on this board; this does not make Finney a heretic, merely someone with a variant understanding of the Scripture to your view of theology.

Evangelist Finney believed that Jesus died for sinners and that by believing and trusting in Jesus the lost will be saved. This is orthodoxy, at least one aspect of it as noted in his reflections as to what faith in Christ really meant from his viewpoint.

In the Presbyterian Church, the young man, Finney, called to preach came under the care of a presbytery, a group of elders and ministers. Charles did not stay with his written sermon and his performance was deemed acceptable by the elders and he was licensed to preach in the Presbyterian Church. Gale was, at first not pleased that Finney studied theology under him because Finney studied and came out more Arminian in his belief system. The following summer, on July 1, 1824, the St. Lawrence Presbytery met at Evans Mills, New York, to ordain Finney. They had about a year where they could have refused him, but instead they ordained him.


Even, B.B. Warfield a Princeton Calvinist said of Rev. Finney, that he ‘conducted the most spectacular evangelism activities the country has ever witnessed.’

 

So you say that no one will go to hell because of sin? [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]Not me, but the scriptures!

 

What do you think I've been saying all along? I have not deviated from the fact that the ATONEMENT works in spite of man! I have never, and will never say that the atonement is dependent upon one's faith! That is a Calvinist point of view.

 

Once more you wrangle the scriptures to make them say what they do not.

From Hebrews 11:7

It doesn't say that faith IS righteousness, nor does it say that faith is SEEN as righteousness--

It says that Righteousness COMES BY FAITH. Faith is the means by which we receive the righteousness of another--that is, Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]Get real Monergist, the whole of Hebrews 11 is about the reason those named are acknowledged by God. It is because God counted to them their faith in Him as Righteousness! Verse 2. "It is for their faith that our ancestors are acknowledged." God does not acknowledge those who have no faith in Him. He destroyed the human race for it's UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, saving only FAITH FILLED Noah, His wife and there children along with a male and female of each of the species of animals. And yes, He is wise enough to know the difference.

 

Johnp, How about let's set the record straight!

Monergist asked: "Do you believe that it is possible for a person to go to hell with all their sins forgiven? If so, how is it?"

To which, after a brief explanation, I countered: "Is it possible for one to go to Heaven with all one's sins forgiven? Yes! "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 john 1:9)"

Monergist said: "Let me get this straight. So do you believe that it would be possible for a person to go to eternal damnation (eternal death) even though that person's penalty (eternal death) has been removed?"

I replied: YES! YES! YES! SALVATION IS BASED ON FAITH ALONE!

Monergist then said: So you say that no one will go to hell because of sin?

Then you butted in with

That was not the question was it? Is it possible for one to go to Hell with all one's sins forgiven is the question is it not?</font>[/QUOTE]My answer remains YES! YES! YES!

SINS are not part of the salvation equation! Jesus took the power away from sin by atoning for it! Sin is trumped by the blood of the Lamb!

Monergist! No one gets cast into the lake of fire because of sin! The only reason for human's to be cast into the lake of fire is that their names are not found in the Lamb's book of life! That means those who are cast into the lake of fire did not have faith in God during this natural life! Jesus told us in John 3:18 that those who do have faith ARE NOT JUDGED, but those who do not believe JUDGE THEMSELVES by their unbelief! Ain't that good news? so Believe in Jesus with all your heart, Soul and mind. By such belief, You are saved!

Just in case you want to ask, NO! that does not give us license to sin! If you truly believe in Jesus, and are truly spirit led, you get convicted of any and all sins you commit by the Holy Spirit! But, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness! If we truly believe in Jesus we will not dishonor him through sin that he died to atone for!

 

Wes.

Excuse me for butting in. I had asked you this question yesterday and found you were being asked again.
I have trouble getting me head round this.
No one goes to Hell because of sin they end up there as a natural consequence of their disbelief?

Cast in you say so it is a punishment? Are they cast in? Then it is a punishment not a natural consequence. Punishment or not? A damnable sin or not?

Forgiven sinners in Hell is a strange thing.

johnp.

 

Wes, please explain this phrase...the righteousness that comes by faith.. </font>[/QUOTE]Abraham was not a "righteous" man. He was a man who had faith in God, to the point that he would sacrifice his ONLY son fathered in old age, Isaac in order to be faithful to God who ordered it.

In being faithful to God, Abraham understood that he would invalidate God's promise that He Abraham would be the Father of many nations. But good ole Abraham took Isaac out with him anyway to "worship God" and to deliver up the Sacrifice to God.

Again, Abraham was not a righteous man, only one with Faith in God. It was that FAITH that God saw in Abraham that God counted unto him AS RIGHTEOUSNESS, covering whatever sins Abraham may have had, or continued to have.

In other words, God saw FAITH and did not see sin!

That is the same way it is with us. If we have faith in God, he does not see our sin! To God our faith in Jesus is counted to us as Righteousness just as Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness.

 

Cast in you say so it is a punishment? Are they cast in? Then it is a punishment not a natural consequence. Punishment or not? A damnable sin or not?

Forgiven sinners in Hell is a strange thing.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Whoa! Johnp, here it is again.

NNE IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, THE SECOND DEATH, BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN! It is because they LACK FAITH in God.

Revelation 20:11-15. Then I saw a great white throne and the One who was sitting on it. In his presence, earth and sky vanished, leaving no trace. I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing in front of his throne while the books lay open. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, as their deeds deserved.*1*

The sea gave up all the dead who were in it; Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds deserved.*2* Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death; and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake.*3*

*1* and *2* are the same judgment of deeds. Deeds are what we do, and we human's do both extremely good deeds and extremely bad deeds and every kind of deed in between those extremes. Our deeds are tested as if by fire. The Good deeds come through the fire in the manner that gold, silver, and precious stones do. Gold and silver are refined or purified by fire, and precious stones are not effected by it. Bad deeds do not survive the fire but are consumed in the fire in the manner of wood, hay and stubble leaving only worthless ash. But the person doing the deeds is not tested by fire but must live with the result of having his deeds so tested. The result of the good we can lay at the feet of Jesus, the result of the bad? well you figure out what you can do with worthless ash.

*3* this is the Judgment of man, all mankind. If your name is not written in the book of life, you the person are cast into the lake of fire, the second death or the death of spirit. If you look at Revelation 20:10. "Then the devil, who led them astray, was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever." You will see that ALL evil and Unbelievers, end up in the lake of fire.

The only difference among humans is the state of their spirit, whether it be one of Believing in God or not believing in God. Jesus said in John 3:18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son. You will notice that Jesus does not mention SIN in his discourse with Nicodemus, only believing and not believing.

 

Did I use that phrase and it confused you?

Jesus, Our Lord, is our righteousness because we are ourselves not righteous. We can have faith in God, even great faith like unto that of Abraham, but even our greatest faith is not sufficient to be Righteousness. That is why Jesus, the perfect, unblemished Lamb of God, is our righteousness.