Servants of Mary

Wait a minute, though. No matter how much you 'diminish' it, the man Jesus Christ had a mother, Mary (and a Father as well, God). You can't just get rid of that fact. Besides, would Christ really be born to Mary and then say, "Step aside" and not honor her? He would not be keeping one of the ten commandments then! I am not a Catholic, but I think that we need to investigate this a bit more because it can't be literal or else Jesus would not have been physically born. But because He was physically born He has a mother, like it or not. Yes, she is not His spiritual mother, but physically, she is His mother.

Neal

 

No one would object to the fact that one of the main points in writing the Book of Hebrews was to point out the spiritual fact of the eternal Priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7:25 offers these words. 'Wherefore, He is able to save them to the uttermost, those who come unto God by Him, {meaning Christ} seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.' (meaning Christians)

I notice no other verse or footnote as to the need of any other spiritual helpers, earthly, human-beings or in a Heavenly body in the glory of His Presence who are officiating, or interceding in prayers on our behalf as earthly, struggling saints.

We do have an Advocate/Attorney Who is Jesus Christ. [I John 2:1] There is no need for any others to stand in the gap, between earth and Heaven, the abode of God.

 

I have no doubt that Jesus is THE Advocate, but I would ask, do you ever pray for someone else? For their salvation, health, safety, etc? If so, what do you call your role?

Neal

 

Of course I pray for these kinds of situations and needs. I don't need a classification when I pray to the Lord. I know He does not need reminding, but I feel better when I know that I am concerned for souls. I think Jesus has no problem with human ambassadors. [II Corinthians 5:20]

What we are saying is that no one can minister salvation to a soul but Christ. [I Timothy 2:5 & John 3:16] God must give the Holy Spirit to the penitent sinner; no one else can do this. He is the only go-between--- between God and human sinners.

 

Well, to the best of my understanding, the Catholic Church does not say that Mary can minister salvation to any soul. I also don't think that she can give the Holy Spirit to anyone. So I guess that is not the issue, right?

Neal

 

Well, to the best of my understanding, the Catholic Church does not say that Mary can minister salvation to any soul. I also don't think that she can give the Holy Spirit to anyone. So I guess that is not the issue, right?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]There have been Catholics bold enough, or unknowledgeable enough to post just that thought. That is, that Mary does have some kind of divine power to Control Jesus in the affairs of man. There are "actions" in Catholic practice that indicate an allegiance to Mary as a redeemer. And of course there is the teaching that Mary has the power to hear the individual prayers of millions of those of us still living this natural life who are praying at the same time but in different locations.

By such teachings, Mary is raised to the status of Godess, above all other women, and that is contradictory to scriptural teachings.

 

Even so, I was pointing out that I do not think that is official Church teaching. I am not trying to defend all of their teachings, but I don't see the point in arguing something that is not taught. There are people of every denomination of Protestants that are a little out of wack with what their church teaches, so we can't say that is official doctrine of the Church when a few Catholics do it.

Neal

 

Mary is not a god, does not minister salvation to any soul, and has no supernatural power over Jesus. Mary has no power over Jesus Christ, than the power of a mother’s love. According to Holy Scripture she goes to Him with our needs. She only said to Him, “They have no wine.” By the way, Jesus changing water into wine was very significant here. As scripture says this was the beginning of His signs and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him. Such a humble woman only pointed out the need to Jesus that there was no wine. She only says, “They have no wine.” Could Jesus have manifested His glory without her. Yes, but he didn’t.

 

Kathryn,
The ministry of Jesus on this earth had some distinct differences to his ministry as the supreme creator God.

Because of one event during His human manifestation you surmize that his heavenly business is conducted in like manner?

You assume that God's deceased 'human mother' can "inform" omniscient, All seeing, all hearing, God about what she, as totally human person, incapable of carrying on multiple conversations simultaneously, supposedly hears in the prayers of uncounted millions of prayers to her every day?

Somewhere there must be some kind of reality in that doctrine, because so many are deceived by it, but not those who adhere to the simple scriptural teachings.

If you believe that the turning of water into wine is the first "miracle" performed by Jesus, I suspect that you might be wrong. Jesus was a 30 year old man by the time this even took place. In the previous 30 years there were probable many "lesser" miracles performed that did not get recorded because it was "not His time".

Suffice it to say that it is quite unlikely that Mary has "motherly influence" over almighty God.

 

quote:Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The attributes "needed" by the Bible character "Melchizedek" (King of righteousness) to be considered "LIKE" the Son of God - are listed above.

#1. Without Father (on Earth - no true Father)
#2. Without Mother (on Earth - no true Mother)
#3. Without beginning of days
#4. Without end of life (on Earth - His death does not end His life - because He rises )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In fact - here is the text.

Heb 7:3

3 Without father
, without mother,
without genealogy,
having neither beginning of days nor end of life,
but made LIKE the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually

Well you are correct that thread on Hebrews 7 on this board goes into this in more detail.

But the "point is" that Melchizedek is a "Bible character" (see Genesis 14).

A king that Abraham met - who was both a priest to God AND the King of Salem. Abraham paid him tithe.

The writer of Hebrews observes that IN THE BIBLE story we are not given a geneology, age, history, death for Melchizedek - so IN THOSE RESPECTS He becomes LIKE the Son of God - because what we find - absent in the STORY - is absent in TRUTH in the life of Christ. Christ REALLY HAS "no Father, no Mother, No beginning, No end.." all the attributes listed. So in that way - the Bible character is "LIKE" the Son of God.

He becomes a "type" pointing to the "antitype" - like the Passover lamb "type" points to Christ as ITS antitype "Christ our PASSOVER has been sacrificed" 1Cor 5.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yelsew says:

'Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven . (Matthew 6:10)


Jesus himself tells us this is so. I will believe Him. (see post below for further info).


Yelsew says:

“ This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him .” John 2:11

You can say it isn't so, and downplay Mary's role all you want, but the word of God tells a different story. You are reading Holy Scripture with an anti-Mary bias, and not seeing what is the word of God.

God Bless

[ June 08, 2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Yelsew:

"Thy kingdom come thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"(Matthew 6:10):

2823. "'He has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ . . . to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will.'[Eph 1:9-11 .] We ask insistently for this loving plan to be fully realized on earth as it is already in heaven." To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/pater2.html#EARTH

2827. "'If any one is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.'[Jn 9:31 ; Cf. 1Jn 5:14 .] Such is the power of the Church's prayer in the name of her Lord, above all in the Eucharist. Her prayer is also a communion of intercession with the all-holy Mother of God[Cf. Lk 1:38, 49 .] and all the saints who have been pleasing to the Lord because they willed his will alone :
It would not be inconsistent with the truth to understand the words, 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven,' to mean: 'in the Church as in our Lord Jesus Christ himself'; or 'in the Bride who has been betrothed, just as in the Bridegroom who has accomplished the will of the Father. '[St. Augustine, De serm. Dom. 2, 6, 24: PL 34, 1279.]"
To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/pater2.html#EARTH

God Bless

 

Is Mary treated as a god by Catholics?

The claim is "no".

Well then - what is the "practice"?

Songs sung TO Mary or TO a saint - although a questionable practice to sing to the dead -
is not the same thing as "praying to the dead". When prayers are offered at the altars of the dead - with candles and incense JUST as we see in the case of any other religion claiming that same thing and admitting that these are "gods" to them. One has to pause for a moment and think about that.

As noted above "protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950
"

In Christ,

Bob

 

And no Mary is not a god. Catholics confess our faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and our God and our Savior. We believe in the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit as the one true God.

Here is more info on the title which is yet to be given :

http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php


God Bless

 

Kathryn,

You offered these thoughts. Such is the power of the Church's prayer in the name of her Lord, above all in the Eucharist. Her prayer is also a communion of intercession with the all-holy Mother of God [Cf. Lk 1:38, 49 .] and all the saints who have been pleasing . . . '

We agree that God greatly values the earnest prayers of His people, while they pray to Him on this earth. [James 5:16 d] Our problem is we have never bought in on the Roman Church's idea of the assumption of Mary into Heaven. Why? Because there is not one iota of Scriptural support for this idea. While she was on earth I am rather sure that the Lord paid attention to the prayers of His human mother. You are getting the picture. We rightly believe that somewhere her body lies in a grave that long ago has turned back into God's matter.

I am not trying to be ungracious, but Mary's human body awaits resurrection just as all of us will one day will be placed into the grave site.

Mary at her death went immediately into the Presence of the Lord [II Cor. 5:8; Philippians 1:23 & via a spiritual body like unto our Lord's. [II Cor. 5:1-4] praise and worship Him forever; this One Who sits on His throne. [Hebrews 1:3-4] All saints who die in the Lord are not showing devotion to apostles or the mother of our Lord, they are worshipping the Triune Godhead, both from our world and in His Heaven above. [John 4:23-24] All devotion, adoration, praise and worship should be directed to Jesus. ' . . . for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.

I believe we find your references of Luke 1:38 & 49 a relatively dry well in trying to prove Mary's intercession coupled with the prayers of glorified saints.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of the more recent Popes declared, ex cathedra, the concept of the assumption of Mary into Heaven. We take this to be a declaration that she ascended into Heaven sometime before she even died.

The difference between your church and ours is that let's say if Rev. Dr. Stanley out of Atlanta, Georgia would come up with some novel doctrine, we would immediately check with the Scripture, Greek scholars, and other scholars on Biblical interpretation to see if what he was saying was correct. Sola Scriptura . . . or only the Scripture is our guiding light to understand His truth for us. We do not value human tradition as to our salvation or updated doctrines of the church. Everything anyone needs to find Christ and make Heaven their final destiny is found in the Bible, which are the words of God to us.

 

Bob here claims that Catholics deify Mary. He provides some quotes, of course as usual away from the context of their full articles. However, that does not even really matter, because as I will show, none of the below quotes puts Mary on an equal level with the One True God.

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God,

If Mary is the distributor, then she is not the originator of mercy, but as the text says, an intermediary. One who is serving a higher being, as an intermediary, cannot be God. But, if Bob would have read all that he posted, he would have seen that in the continuation of the sentence:

for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ,

And here is the next one: thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.

I do wonder...how one comes to know Jesus Christ without the assistance of divine revelation, which as Protestants, you believe is delivered in the Words of the Bible. And yet, the Words of the Bible, rightly the Words of God, were given to you by an intermediary, that is, the writers of the Old and New Testament. Thus, the salvation offered by Jesus Christ has been passed down to you, through faith, by the Word of God given to you by chosen men. Are they gods? No. Then one cannot argue that Catholics believe that Mary is a god.

...How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea?wherever the Catholic faith has penetrated?many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

While you may not like the language, as the above understandings demonstarte, all of this is still subordinate to God, from whom her role is derived.

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

I bring the same argument, that your salvation is brought to you through faith in the Word of God, delivered by men whom God Himself chose to do just that. Salvation is not BY Mary, though it is presented to us THROUGH Mary. She is not deified, because her role as mediatrix must be given by one who is more powerful, that being God.

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son;

But she didn't die, and we do not make the claim that she did.

for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

To work with God does not make one God. I see no evidence of deification.

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25

Does being fruitful for redemption carry the same weight as actually redeeming? No, and if that is implied by Bob, his implication is clearly false.

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven. He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

Hmm...God filled her above every OTHER creature. That means that God is clearly superlative, and that she IS a creature. Hard to be a deity if you are a creature. Oh, and God crowned her Queen of the Universe. She didn't crown herself, which means she isn't a deity.

Oh crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950

All of the above attributed to Mary is acknowledge to be given her by God, thus making her superemly lower than God, and as it has been said, the highest among CREATURES, and yet creature. Moreso, as James tells us that the fervent prayers of the righteous ACCOMPLISHES MUCH, so does Mary accomplish much on our behalf by her fervent prayers to Her Son. No deity about it.


"Is the Blessed Virgin powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants? Yes. The Blessed Virgin is powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants, that is, those who from the bottom of their hearts without ceasing ask her to help them to rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel, and to die in the love of God."
- Short Catechism Of Mary, Cardinal Charles Journet, pg 56

I see subordinance to God written all of it. She "helps us" to "die in the love of God." Clearly, Mary is not God in this statement.

"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ?yes? of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son

This was foretold by the prophet Simeon when Jesus was presented at the temple ("a sword will also pierce your soul").


(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ?lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth? (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ?to gather into one all the dispersed children of God? (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).

How can one aid God if one IS God? Right, because Mary is not God, and this passage testifies to that.

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

Mary is all powerful...how? "WITH HER DIVINE SON WHO GRANTS ALL GRACES TO MANKIND THROUGH HER. Thus, subordinate to her Son.

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

All power is given, thus, she is not deity, because the power is deligated to her, not originating from her.

Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

To be God, one has the superlative of all. Omnipotence is a characteristic of God, but it does not define God. Thus, having all power deligated to her, does not make her God, but a sharer in the divine nature.

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

I know for a fact that this has been taken out of context. It has been shown on this board before. You have chosen to ignore it for deceitful purposes, or for lack of checking your sources.

"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus
[/QUOTE]

None of these show divinity of Mary. To insinuate otherwise is to not understand the supreme nature of God, since Mary, in all cases, is given her power by God, thus making her under God.

God bless,

Grant

 

You take it incorrectly. The Church has made no pronouncement if she died or not, before the assumption, although the general concensus is that she likely did die.[/QB][/QUOTE]

 

Ray:

As you know I don’t believe in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. I don’t believe it's taught in Holy Scripture. You guys have dismissed all Holy Scripture that I have presented. You only accept the scripture that fits your own doctrines. You put your own spin on Holy Scripture, in spite of claiming Sola Scriptura.

You explain away Jesus saying, “Behold your mother!” on the cross, as Jesus just making sure someone takes care of her. He could have said just that. He could have made arrangements for her beforehand if that was His only concern. Jesus however said, “Woman behold your son!” to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” He didn’t say what you want it to say. “Take care of her as your sister.” Jesus meant what he said. It is as simple as that. Why did Mary need a new son? Why did a grown man need a mother? Why didn't other "sisters" and "brothers" take her in? Your spin is unnecessary. Jesus words speak for themselves.

I have been told here that Mary was not instrumental in Jesus’ first public miracle. I have been told this was just one of many miracles, no big deal. This is not the word of God.

The word of God says:
“ This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him .” John 2:11

The bible doesn’t say what you guys are telling me it says. John chapter two tells the story of how Mary was instrumental in the beginning of His signs which Jesus did in Cana, and how it manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him. Jesus Himself says it was not His time yet, but for her He did the miracle.

Mary had a significant role which is denied by you guys who claim to hold to the word of God.

Yes, Mary is the Mother of God. She became the mother of God at the Incarnation. Most here deny this. In Holy Scripture Martha knew just this, as she was filled with the Holy Spirit. She called Mary the "mother of my Lord". Most here will not aknowledge this. There is more that many non-Catholics choose to ignore, but to say it is because of belief in Sola Scriptura is not correct.

I believe I hold closer to truth of Holy Scripture as a Catholic, who believes Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching authority of the Church that Jesus gave us. The pillar and foundation of Truth is the Church...the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. Besides Jesus explained things to the Apostles before He went to heaven and they passed down the faith they were taught to contend earnestly for. I'll stick with the Church's teachings, rather than individual interpretation.

God Bless

Here is a site that explains very well Catholic belief regarding Mary.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/MARY523.HTM#11

[ June 09, 2003, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

By the same token, if He had meant to say "Behold all the disciples' mother" He could have said just that. NOTICE THIS:

(John 19:26-7) When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

I contrast the above reading with Jesus words to Nicodemus:

(John 3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The New Birth is binding on all men. Therefore, although speaking only to one person (Nicodemus) Jesus used the plural-you (ye) to show that it applied to all persons. He also told him "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit" emphasizing that it was for all. In speaking to Mary about John and to John about Mary, however, He uses the singular-you (thy) to show that Mary is John's mother and John Mary's son, not that Mary is the mother of all disciples or that all disciples are the sons of Mary. If Jesus had used the plural-you then I would believe the Romish position on this, because that would prove it was for all. Besides the fact that Jesus did not use the plural-you, there is the absolute lack of any mention of Mary as being the mother of all the faithful ANYWHERE in the New Testament.

 

As I have already pointed out, instead of using the specific name "John", the Holy spirit in Holy Scripture chose to use the generic word “disciple” in who Jesus was referring to when He said, "Behold thy mother!". I didn't add the exclamation point either.

"Behold" here is used in the imperative sense to call attention to it. Even the King James version adds the exclamation point at the end. Jesus is making a profound statement.... not just taking care of domestic business with His last breath. If this message was only for John, it would not have needed to be recorded in Holy Scripture if it had no significance for us. The reason for the generic rather the specific: Jesus is speaking as the slain Lamb of God. He is speaking eternally for all ages.

God Bless

[ June 09, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]