The reign of amillenial theology

Well trailblazer, we agree to disagree. Needless to say, I disagree with just about everything you have posted ERXCEPT:
"But I say; Once again, we are not to “think first about what makes sense to us” in our faulty human minds and then go to scripture for verification of it. It is the first downfall of all faulty religions."
Exactly!
Not taking the most literal interpretation of scripture is the pitfall of the a-mill's.

 

Evidently John Nelson Darby is your leader, but then, as I said in my first response, I'm not at all surprised.

 

trailblazer, I had high hopes we could part here on friendly terms, like brethren.
Apparently, you mean to associate me with this John Nelson Darby, whom I have never heard of, to defame or demean me in some way. I would not do that to you.
As far as human teachers are concerned, I prefer J. Dwight Pentecost (whose book "Things To Come" destroys the amill position), John Walvoord, J. Vernon McGee, John McArthur, etc.
But this does not mean that, "I am of Pentecost, or I am of Walvoord", it is just that, again, the premill position is the best fit for all Scripture that speaks of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.

 

Watchman: " ... again, the premill position is the best fit
for all Scripture that speaks of the Second Coming of
the Lord Jesus."

As for John Nelson, he is the fellow who
cointed the term "pretribulation" about 1830.
Then (this is the miracle part ) he got
in a time machine and went back into time
to 1611 and made the translators support him
by using "a falling away" to denote the
pretribulation raputre instead of using the
word "apostasy" which did exist then.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV1611):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall
not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,

Then John Nelson Darby got back in the time machine
and whent back to 1555 to get the Geneva Bible translators
to put "a departing first" denoting the pretrib rapture
instead of the English word apostasy which did exist
in 1555.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible 1555):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day
shall not come, except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
euen the sonne of perdition,

Wasn't John Nelson Darby a cool fellow?
Amills don't like John Nelson Darby,
he smashed their theories to bits.

 

John Nelson Darby is false teaching. that why im aganist it.

 

Ed,

I have no problem with word, 'departing first'. Actually, both 'departure' & 'apostasy' are synonymous meaning. For example - 1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressely, that in the latter times some SHALL DEPART FROM the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." This verse is obivously speak of apostasy in the last days.

2 Thess. 2:3 does not support the idea meaning of rapture. None of Early Church fathers saying 'falling away' or 'depart' either is speak of rapture. The fact was, none of them use term word as 'caught up' for 'rapture' in their time. The word, 'rapture' was not popular among Churches more than 200 years ago. Till John N. Darby developed his own doctrine on rapture. Many churches started to adopted Darby's teaching in the 19th Century. I reject Darby's teaching, because of his teaching is conflict with God's Word. I rather follow what God's Word saying than what men saying according Colssians 2:8.

Also, no excuse for you to read and understand what 2 Thess. 2:3 talks about. Apostle Paul told us very clear, do not let any person deceived us of any false teachings, rumours about the timing of Christ's coming. Paul tells us, DAY(day of Christ-vs. 2, our gathering together-vs. 1) SHALL NOT COME till we must see come falling away FIRST and the revealed of Antichrist. Obivously, 2 Thess. 2:3 cannot be pretrib doctrine, it is easily teaching of posttrib doctrine according what Apostle Paul taught.

You have to accept what Apostle Paul says, follow God's Word instead what you listening to any men's teaching - Col. 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

WATCHMAN,

I question this because if you have been pre-mil for 33 years, as you say, have been posting on this board and yet, read all those books by all those authors you list below you have never heard of John Nelson Darby????

I apologize if you mistook my tough challenge as demeaning because it wasn't intended to be that way. I thoght I prefaced it by explaining that Darby brought in the new doctrine of dispensationalism that created a diversion from what had been the prevailing thought of the Second Coming of Christ for 1,800 years. I pointed out that "if this new doctrine cannot be God ordained, then you by default are following your leader Darby and not Christ."

It was also a test. I was curious as to whether or not you would focus on the 21+ scripture verses that I used to support my position on or revert to the most often used tactic of dispensationalist that I have observed on this board.

Nine times out of ten, when a dispensationalist is faced with undeniable scripture that cannot be refuted, the fallback position is to revert to running away and hiding from the truths of scripture that were brought out.

This speaks volumes! All of those writers (including Hal Lindsay that you previously mentioned) got their positions from Darby. Scofield got it from Darby. Dallas Theological Seminary attributes as their foundation the teachings of Darby and Scofield. Most of the writers you mention, came out of Dallas Theological Seminary or other dispensational institutions. Trace your roots back!

Quite frankly, yes it does because they are all disciples of Darby!!

I believe that by using scripture, I was able to successfully address all of your main points by showing...

1) that the church does go through the Great Tribulation of Matt 24
2) that the "white robed saints" of Rev 7:14 can be no one else but those who came out of the "Great Tribulation."
3) that "the church cannot be shown to be raptured out" prior to the Great Tribulation based on Rev 7:14 alone if it is taken "literally."
4) that God's elect, even though they go through the Great Tribulation, do not suffer God's wrath, punishment or condemnation.

 

i was looking at webster's dictionary Rapture {noun} estaic joy or delight or emotinal feeling.

none of the early chruch fathers to before 1830's using word rapture or falling away or departing form faith in thier time.

darby's doctrine just make up for new word rapture as catch up or missing before tribualtion.

2 thess 2:3 is telling us we must see anitchrist reval himself first we must go through tribualtion unitl Christ come.

early chruch father to before 1830"s beliving in ONE Future coming of christ after the tribualtion, beliving in One Future Judgement at coming of Christ.

brumleyj
ps27:1
amem

 

trailblazer:
No, I spoke the truth, I never heard of John Nelson Darby. However, I did do some quick searching on the internet about him.
While I did find some critcism of his teaching on eschatology (your fellow amill's), I did not find a single article that disputed his integrity and devotion to the Lord Jesus and His word. In short,
if he were alive today, by what I've seen, I would be thrilled to have him as a guest speaker at our Church.
But you continue to use the word "disciples".
Are you, therefore, a "disciple" of Origen, whom the original poster pointed out was a heretical teacher?
Oh, and yes, I did note all of your "counterpoints" and, needless to say, I disagree with all of your conclusions.

 

This is an error. The dictionary in my house says:

rapture 3. {now rare} a carrying away or being
carried away in body or spirit

This is the meaning of the English word "rapture" which
is used in reference to the Bible. Note that the Christian
meaning is "now rare" so it is missing from inferior
dictionaries.

Your statement is in error.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Latin Vulgate)
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur
simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus
obviam Domino in aera et sic semper
cum Domino erimus

The Latin Vulgate translation from Greek (New Testament)
and from the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) was
lead by Early Church Father (ECF) Jerome (Latin name was Eusebius Hieronymus) He translated into Latin completeing
his work in 383-385AD.
YOu will notice one word in 1 Thess 4:17 "rapiemur" which
is Latin for the Greek "harpazo" which in English
is "shall be caught up". Latin "rapiemur" is a form
of Latin "rapere" from which the English word "rapture"
was created prior to the 12th Century (1101-1200).

Sorry, Darby started working his theory in 1830 though
it was not fully formed until he came to America in the
late 1860s. The word was in the Latin Vulgate 1445 years
earlier. The word "rapture" meaning "being caught up"
was in English 700 years before Darby.

Your understanding of 2 Thess 2:3 is greatly in
error. 2 Thess 2:3 clearly says the "falling away"
will happen before the antichrist is revealed.
The "falling away" (AKA: the Caught Up, move the
camera 180s for the two different viewpoints)
is the rapture of the saints and it comes first,
then the antichrist is revealed, then the
tribulation day begins. This verse says noting
about us having to be in tribulation until
Christ comes - other verses say it, just not this one.

You are welcome to your opinion. But this is just
your opinion and you have know way of knowing what
all the early chruch fathers (ECF) believed.
They are probably like us an believed what they were
taught by their mentors. Paul even addressed in
the same chapter we were dicussing:

2Th 2:15 (KJV1611):
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold
the traditions which yee haue beene taught,
whether by word or our Epistle.

Why did you abandon your church's teaching of the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection?

Four unfactual statements and one opinion - give that
man an .200 batting average Sorry, to win a debate
for a-mill requires a 1,000 batting average (100%).

 

WATCHMAN,

1) I have NO idea who Origen is. "If" my beliefs are not God ordained and it's foundation is through Origens beliefs then, I would have to say that I am his disciple, as we are all disciples of someone - even if by default. ALL false teachers use scripture and make their doctrine sound sweet to the ears, and "reasonable" to the minds. Having sat with a JW and watched them believe in their heart of hearts that Charles Taze Russell was absolutely correct in his doctrine was very very disheartening indeed. It was almost impossible to penetrate the indoctrination of one of his disciples. They too would deny that they were a disciple of C.T. Russell, but, by default they are.

I am not going so far as to say that I believe it is "apostasy" to be a dispensationalist, because I leave that up to Christ - that's his job. However, I am certain that it is in very, very serious error.

That is the seriousness of the responsibility of each and every one of us to make absolutely sure that all of our beliefs are well-grounded in scripture.

2) However, IF Origen did interpret scripture correctly then he would be a disciple of Christ. His being a disciple of Christ, would then be pointing the way TO Christ - thus being, in God's eyes, one of his many expositors of scripture throughout the world. Non God ordained, scripturally unsound teachers do not point the way to Christ but away from Christ in their doctrine.

3) You have yet to address even one use of scripture that can be shown conclusively to be in error, and therefore it can only be that it is because it can't be "successfully" refuted.

[ February 10, 2005, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: trailblazer ]

 

I can't believe you have been a poster here two months
and don't know Origen. Posting requires a bit of
reading, you know???

Matthew 5:29=30 (HCSB):
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell!

Origen believed this and saw that he would get sidetracked
by sex. So he had his sex life disabled (local
doctors in Egypt knew how to do this, they did it
to slaves all the time).

For this the ditzy wings of the Baptists attribute to
Origen all the ills of 3rd century Egypt religion
including the Alexandrian line of Bibles. See Chick
Comics for more details

 

While others ignore the 21-verse post of
Trailblazer where he misunderstands the scriputres
about "tribualtion", here is some Ed posts of
scriptures about Tribulation:

Note you won't have to ignore them very long because we
are almost to page 20 of this thread where we will
start another thread to continue this discussion.

--------------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

"tribulations" in KJV:

1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition>
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Most likely:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.

 

A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF SCRIPTURE TWISTING;

If I am in a great big swimming pool and "come out of" the great swimming pool to stand before the lifeguard, I must have been IN the swimming pool to begin with! This is logic that an 8-year old can understand.

The same principle is applied to Rev 7:14. If I am one of the "white robed saints who have come out of the great tribulation" to stand before the throne of God, then I obviously have been in the great tribulation to begin with!!!!

 

Trailblazer,

EXACTLY!!!!

That what John saw in his vision of Rev. 7:9-17, that one of the elders told him, these which are come out FROM great tribulaiton, obivously, they already through it first before they come out of it. Very simple.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

THIS AGE & AGE TO COME


Bible teaches us, there is the only two ages in God's plan.

Right now, we are in this age. This prsent age have been running since from creation to today. This present age is a temporary time. The next age to come is eternality.

I make the comparing of 'this age' & 'age to come' with verses:

Present Age:

Matthew 12:32 - blasphemy against Holy Spirit in this present world(age)

Matthew 13:30a - both unbelievers and believers are growing together in this present age

Matthew 24:3 - Signs in this present age

Matthew 28:19-20 -Gospel is now preaching in this present age

Mark 10:30 - houses, works, family, lands in this present age

Luke 18:30 - earthly or materialism rewards in this present age

Luke 20:34 - people are given to marriage, produce more children in this present age

Romans 12:2 - We do not compromsing with in this present world

1 Corinthians 1:20 - philosophy of this present age

1 Corinthains 2:6-8 - Wisdom and rulers of this present age

2 Corinthians 4:4 -Satan, the god of this present world, blinds people from the gospel

Galatians 1:4 - The present age is evil

Ephesians 1:20-21 - Christ reigns in this present age

Ephesians 2:2 - this present world or age is filled of evil

1 Timothy 6:17 - Earthly things or materialism of this present age

Titus 2:12 - We are commanded to walk godly in this present age


Age to Come:

Matthew 12:32 No forgiveness for blasphemy against Holy Spirit in the next age

Matthew 13:30b, 40 - unbelievers shall be separated from believers and cast into everlasting fire - in the next age

Mark 10:30 - Eternal Life is a reward

***Luke 20:35 - NO marriage, and NO produce children in next age.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 -NO sinners/unbelievers will be there on earth in the next age

Galatians 5:21 - They who doing evil things, shall not enter eternality kingdom- on new earth in the next age

Ephesians 1:21 - Christ shall continue reign in the next age to come

Ephesians 5:5 - NO sinners/unbelievers shall enter eternality kingdom on new earth in the next age

1 Thessalonians 2:12 - We are commanded to walk godly to be worthy for coming eternal life in the next age

2 Thessalonians 1:5 - We should be suffer of our faith to be worthy for the eternal life in the next age

1 Timothy 6:19 - Be faithful and our rewards for eternal life in the next age

2 Timothy 4:18 -Lord shall bring us into eternal life in the next age.

Christ teaches us very clear, there is only two ages in God's plan.

The harvest of the earth shall be at the end of this present age - Matthew chapter 13; Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation chapter 7 and 14.

Christ shall send his angels to gathering all unbelievers, and cast them away into everlasting fire at the end of the world(this present age).

Jesus Christ, himself never teaching to his disciples on earth about 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the four gospels.

Premil teaches, that when tribulation saints who will miss rapture, will be survived through whole 7 years of tribulation period at Christ's coming. BUt, they shall not receive immortality like us, they shall be remain moral bodies, and will continue produce more children during millennial kingdom. There is no scripture supports this teaching.

1 Corinthains 15:51-54 tell us, when Christ shall come, ALLLL of us as believers shall be changed into immortality.

Immortality means opposite of dying or moral. It is eternal life, and have new body and be glorified be like Christ.

Luke 20:34-36 - Christ tells us, right now, people are getting married, and produce more children, because they are moral(flesh). But, in the next age to come, there shall be NO marriage, NO produce of children, why? Because we as believers shall be like angels, as being "the children of the resurrection". Once our body all changed into immortality, then, NO MORE sex, NO MORE produce children in the next age.

The next age is ETERNALITY .

Very simple and plain.

I rather myself believe in 'Eternality kingdom' than 'amillennial'. Because Bible teaches us that our kingdom is an eternality, without end according Daniel 4:34; 7:14,18, 27.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

WATCHMAN,

I tried to address each one of your points that you laid out in your first and last post but you still have not said where I am wrong concerning the verses used to support my position. Therefore, I am reposting it again.

Nor have you said just what it is that you disagree with me on specifically.

Matthew 24:21-22 is an example of many recorded prophecies having both immediate and future fulfillment aspects to it. Just as there was immediate fulfillment of the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah there is also future fulfillment pictured here that is yet to come with the world being burned with fire. “Duality” is the manner of all prophecy from the time of the first prophecy in the Garden of Eden. The “you shall die” had two aspects to it – immediate and future. The immediate death was spiritual in nature but the future physical aspect of dying did not occur for another 930 years.

Now, what I don’t understand is this; why is it that it seems that dispensationalists can only see ONE aspect of Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24? Why would THE Prophet of all prophets be prophesying any differently here than with Adam and Eve? Especially, when he was answering their question about what they were to expect ahead of them. In his infinite wisdom, he also had it contain instruction for all Christians after 70 a.d. Jesus wanted them to be able to look back at the destruction of Jerusalem as their third example of confirming the fact that the latter destruction of the end of the world would end in fire? Thus, we have Noah and the flood, then Lot and Sodom, and lastly the remnant of apostles and believers out of the destruction of Jerusalem. This is why Jesus referred back to those two previous examples as seen best in Luke 17. With the addition of Matthew 24, all three pictures are there for warnings for all Christians of all time – up until their future fulfillments.

So, with that in mind, the account of the immediate aspect of fulfillment, as reported in Josephus’ History of the Wars of the Jews’ concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, 70 a.d. most definitely qualifies as the literal fulfillment of it. Truly, nothing like that had ever been recorded in the history books up until that point….

At this point, if you cannot see both literal and future aspects of the prophecy in Matthew 24, I see no reason to continue. However, I will go through once again some of the stumbling blocks.

To continue on with your concerns of verses 21-22, you might say, “Ok, so Jerusalem 70 a.d. might qualify as a Great Tribulation, but what about the “…nor ever shall be?” You might say that 6,000,000 Jews during the Holocaust would make that figure look rather miniscule indeed, and therefore it must be future, but the answer to that question would immediately follow.

1) If Jesus were saying that the days are going to be shortened because, otherwise “no flesh (no man) would be saved;” then just who is God shortening them for? For the sake of the elect! (As I said before on my previous post…”The word “saved” can either be speaking of “saved from anything or everything in general” to “the soul being saved from eternal death.” Here again, both aspects of prophecy are visible because only the elect are ever “soul saved.” But, why would it be necessary to shorten those days for the sake of the ”flesh that needs to be saved from physical death?” Because, the gospel was in it’s infancy stages. The commandment to spread the good news of the gospel went out from Jerusalem. The great commission was given to the Jews to proclaim the gospel to the world. Had each and every Jew been killed and no remnant saved from physical death, the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles would never have occurred! For the sake of the “future Gentile elect world” those days were shortened. You and I would not be here today had God put the candle out in 70 a.d. entirely!

2) In addition to this, as I said above concerning the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, it was God’s wrath upon the ungodly just as it was God’s wrath upon ungodly Jerusalem. Had he completely and in its entirety, poured out His wrath upon Jerusalem and “all ungodly flesh”, He essentially would have been bringing the world to a close at that time by destroying all mankind and the gospel age very short indeed.

And that’s primarily why you can have a Great Tribulation of 70 a.d. AND a Great Tribulation with the Christians going through their Great Tribulation prior to the Second Coming of Christ visibly coming in the clouds with both the just and the unjust present going through it.

I answered this in my last post also by posting a more learned individual than myself – Matthew Henry who was pre-Darby influence;
(quoting MH)---“…It is usual in the prophetical style to speak of things great and certain as near and just at hand, only to express the greatness and certainty of them. …The tribulation of those days includes not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but all the other tribulations which the church must pass through; not only its share in the calamities of the nations, but the tribulations peculiar to itself; while the nations are torn with wars, and the church with schisms, delusions, and persecutions, we cannot say that the tribulation of those days is over; the whole state of the church on earth is militant, we must count upon that; but when the church's tribulation is over, her warfare accomplished, and what is behind of the sufferings of Christ filled up, then look for the end.”(end quote)
In addition to this, I listed all of the verses in the NT that had the word “tribulation” in them and it show that Christians do go through “great tribulations” indeed! But, as to the “Great Tribulation” of Revelation? Keep reading.

Watchman, I cannot let this one go without serious Christian chastisement for saying that “Is it not reasonable to presume that the pouring out of God's wrath (in Revelation) is connected to the Lord's "great tribulation" of Matthew 24?” We are NOT to determine our beliefs based on human “reasoning! We are to go to scripture and let scripture tell us what we are to believe – even if those written words are confusing to us or are displeasing to us.”

Therefore, it seems to me that this may very well be the foundation of what dispensationalism is built upon – human reasoning!

For now, suffice it to say, that God’s wrath or punishment is not poured out on his elect. I will address that below, so keep reading.

You are absolutely correct on this – except that, you miss two important facts entirely. 1) That God’s wrath was not on Noah – it was upon the unregenerate. Noah is one of the elect. 2) that Noah was on earth and going through his own “great tribulation” before God shut him in and brought the rains down upon the wicked.

Thus, God’s allotted time for evil to exist before the flood was 120 years. Noah lived through that time of tribulation and was greatly distressed because of the sinfulness of those around him. (6:3; 7:1) And Noah’s “Great Tribulation” period? – seven days!(Ge 7:4) But scripture is very clear that God delivered Noah from his wrath and condemnation”on the very same day” he “took him out (a symbolical picture of rapture)”. This “on the same day” occurrence is stressed 3 times in Luke 17 and it was not ONE day before it.

I wouldn’t disagree with you in the sense that he was physically removed at the time that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah but I think you are also missing the point here too that Lot went through his period of “great tribulation” prior to being taken out, of which “rapture” of the saints and punishment of the wicked occur at the very same time as one major event!

Now, if you look again in Luke 17, you will see where Lot was delivered from his “Great Tribulation” period on “the very same day” that God’s wrath and condemnation fell – not one day before it either!

Now here, you’re have strayed when you use Romans 8:1 to imply that if the elect goes through the Great Tribulation, it means that God would be “condemning” the just along with the unjust because that is not what Romans 8:1 is saying at all! That would be a violation of what he is here saying in Romans and you again are seriously in error of your interpretation. Earlier, in Romans 2: 15-16 Paul very clearly says;

But in Romans 8:35 Paul asks a rhetorical question by saying;

No, no, no,….going through tribulation, even Great Tribulation, does NOT mean that God is “condemning” his elect of church!!!

You ask; “how could it be?”

Once again, GREAT can either mean intensity or a great period of time or it can mean BOTH.

(TO BE CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST)

 

WATCHMAN,

I tried to address each one of your points that you laid out in your first and last post but you have yet to show me, by using scripture, where I am in error so I am reposting it again.

Matthew 24:21-22 is an example of many recorded prophecies having both immediate and future fulfillment aspects to it. Just as there was immediate fulfillment of the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah there is also future fulfillment pictured here that is yet to come with the world being burned with fire. “Duality” is the manner of all prophecy from the time of the first prophecy in the Garden of Eden. The “you shall die” had two aspects to it – immediate and future. The immediate death was spiritual in nature but the future physical aspect of dying did not occur for another 930 years.

Now, what I don’t understand is this; why is it that it seems that dispensationalists can only see ONE aspect of Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24? Why would THE Prophet of all prophets be prophesying any differently here than with Adam and Eve? Especially, when he was answering their question about what they were to expect ahead of them. In his infinite wisdom, he also had it contain instruction for all Christians after 70 a.d. Jesus wanted them to be able to look back at the destruction of Jerusalem as their third example of confirming the fact that the latter destruction of the end of the world would end in fire? Thus, we have Noah and the flood, then Lot and Sodom, and lastly the remnant of apostles and believers out of the destruction of Jerusalem. This is why Jesus referred back to those two previous examples as seen best in Luke 17. With the addition of Matthew 24, all three pictures are there for warnings for all Christians of all time – up until their future fulfillments.

So, with that in mind, the account of the immediate aspect of fulfillment, as reported in Josephus’ History of the Wars of the Jews’ concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, 70 a.d. most definitely qualifies as the literal fulfillment of it. Truly, nothing like that had ever been recorded in the history books up until that point….

At this point, if you cannot see both literal and future aspects of the prophecy in Matthew 24, I see no reason to continue. However, I will go through once again some of the stumbling blocks.

To continue on with your concerns of verses 21-22, you might say, “Ok, so Jerusalem 70 a.d. might qualify as a Great Tribulation, but what about the “…nor ever shall be?” You might say that 6,000,000 Jews during the Holocaust would make that figure look rather miniscule indeed, and therefore it must be future, but the answer to that question would immediately follow.

1) If Jesus were saying that the days are going to be shortened because, otherwise “no flesh (no man) would be saved;” then just who is God shortening them for? For the sake of the elect! (As I said before on my previous post…”The word “saved” can either be speaking of “saved from anything or everything in general” to “the soul being saved from eternal death.” Here again, both aspects of prophecy are visible because only the elect are ever “soul saved.” But, why would it be necessary to shorten those days for the sake of the ”flesh that needs to be saved from physical death?” Because, the gospel was in it’s infancy stages. The commandment to spread the good news of the gospel went out from Jerusalem. The great commission was given to the Jews to proclaim the gospel to the world. Had each and every Jew been killed and no remnant saved from physical death, the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles would never have occurred! For the sake of the “future Gentile elect world” those days were shortened. You and I would not be here today had God put the candle out in 70 a.d. entirely!

2) In addition to this, as I said above concerning the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, it was God’s wrath upon the ungodly just as it was God’s wrath upon ungodly Jerusalem. Had he completely and in its entirety, poured out His wrath upon Jerusalem and “all ungodly flesh”, He essentially would have been bringing the world to a close at that time by destroying all mankind and the gospel age very short indeed.

And that’s primarily why you can have a Great Tribulation of 70 a.d. AND a Great Tribulation with the Christians going through their Great Tribulation prior to the Second Coming of Christ visibly coming in the clouds with both the just and the unjust present going through it.

I answered this in my last post also by posting a more learned individual than myself – Matthew Henry who was pre-Darby influence;
(quoting MH)---“…It is usual in the prophetical style to speak of things great and certain as near and just at hand, only to express the greatness and certainty of them. …The tribulation of those days includes not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but all the other tribulations which the church must pass through; not only its share in the calamities of the nations, but the tribulations peculiar to itself; while the nations are torn with wars, and the church with schisms, delusions, and persecutions, we cannot say that the tribulation of those days is over; the whole state of the church on earth is militant, we must count upon that; but when the church's tribulation is over, her warfare accomplished, and what is behind of the sufferings of Christ filled up, then look for the end.”(end quote)
In addition to this, I listed all of the verses in the NT that had the word “tribulation” in them and it show that Christians do go through “great tribulations” indeed! But, as to the “Great Tribulation” of Revelation? Keep reading.

Watchman, I cannot let this one go without serious Christian chastisement for saying that “Is it not reasonable to presume that the pouring out of God's wrath (in Revelation) is connected to the Lord's "great tribulation" of Matthew 24?” We are NOT to determine our beliefs based on human “reasoning! We are to go to scripture and let scripture tell us what we are to believe – even if those written words are confusing to us or are displeasing to us.”

Therefore, it seems to me that this may very well be the foundation of what dispensationalism is built upon – human reasoning!

For now, suffice it to say, that God’s wrath or punishment is not poured out on his elect. I will address that below, so keep reading.

You are absolutely correct on this – except that, you miss two important facts entirely. 1) That God’s wrath was not on Noah – it was upon the unregenerate. Noah is one of the elect. 2) that Noah was on earth and going through his own “great tribulation” before God shut him in and brought the rains down upon the wicked.

Thus, God’s allotted time for evil to exist before the flood was 120 years. Noah lived through that time of tribulation and was greatly distressed because of the sinfulness of those around him. (6:3; 7:1) And Noah’s “Great Tribulation” period? – seven days!(Ge 7:4) But scripture is very clear that God delivered Noah from his wrath and condemnation”on the very same day” he “took him out (a symbolical picture of rapture)”. This “on the same day” occurrence is stressed 3 times in Luke 17 and it was not ONE day before it.

I wouldn’t disagree with you in the sense that he was physically removed at the time that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah but I think you are also missing the point here too that Lot went through his period of “great tribulation” prior to being taken out, of which “rapture” of the saints and punishment of the wicked occur at the very same time as one major event!

Now, if you look again in Luke 17, you will see where Lot was delivered from his “Great Tribulation” period on “the very same day” that God’s wrath and condemnation fell – not one day before it either!

(TO BE CONTINUED)

 

(TO CONTINUE ON)

Now here, you’re have strayed when you use Romans 8:1 to imply that if the elect goes through the Great Tribulation, it means that God would be “condemning” the just along with the unjust because that is not what Romans 8:1 is saying at all! That would be a violation of what he is here saying in Romans and you again are seriously in error of your interpretation. Earlier, in Romans 2: 15-16 Paul very clearly says;

But in Romans 8:35 Paul asks a rhetorical question by saying;

No, no, no,….going through tribulation, even Great Tribulation, does NOT mean that God is “condemning” his elect of church!!!

You ask; “how could it be?”

Once again, GREAT can either mean intensity or a great period of time or it can mean BOTH.

(TO BE CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST)