Who are the ELECT?

No one seeks after God... NNE...

Please don't give me imperative for the indicative... is that to hard to understand? If God says "Come to me" that is a "Command" not a suggestion. It does not in ANY WAY grammatically mean that this means the All or ANY people that He is speaking to Has the ABILITY to do so. If it was it would be in the indicative, suggesting that man has the ability to... BUT EVERYWHERE calls are in the IMPERATIVE! It's just making a statement of command... If I tell you to fly does that mean you have the ability to fly? NO ! Please ,as Luther told the Catholic Human Secularist Erasmus (in whom you take sides with) Even school boys know the differance between indicative statements and imperatives....

No one seeks after God ... NNE... wes .. so you are telling me that God's word is in err... huh?... If your friends are Christians it's because God chose them,, because THEY WERE NOT SEEKING GOD,,, BECAUSE NNE SEEKS HIM!! simple imperative statement.

 

Hi RC;

So you just like the rest of the Calvinist want to take the rantings of a fool as gospel truth. He also said there is no God. So do you believe there is no God?
May Christ Shine His light On Us All;
Mike

 

rc,

People like Wes, LUVLIGHT and I agree with your statement

At least I--believe that God ministers to sinners in a preemptive way before they either except or reject Christ. [John 3:18] This is the calling of the Spirit of God, [Revelation 22:17] in what Arminian theology calls Prevenient Grace. [John 16:8-11] He convicts and convinces men and women of their lost condition before God, even when they do not seek the Lord. He seeks them. The Holy Spirit seizes the initiative.

If sinners were Totally Depraved they would never come into a state of grace. Sinners having been created in the ‘image of God’ [James 3:9], keeps the path opened, if you will, to the lost person’s heart life by way of his cognitive powers, conscience and will. God bends the will making it easier for the sinner to repent. This proffered grace can still be resisted. [Acts 7:51; John 5:40; Isaiah 63:10] These verses make Effectual Call error and Resistible Grace the truth. It is always the will of the Father that sinners come to Him. [John 5:40; I Timothy 4:10c,d]

The sinners condition before God is not as foreboding as Calvinists like to suggest to their hearers.

 

Thats secular humanism at it's best... The human really isn't THAT bad.. we're basically good... we can find God without Him ... Why does God make it EASIER for man? Wasn't His plan good enough? .. If not, if He has to "make it easier" and God does not want any to parrish... If it is HIS WILL that NONE should parrish, why not make it REALLY easier for all, to where we would all want Him?...

The prescient view takes a wrong understanding of foreknowledge. They take the philosophical, secular word and build their theology around it. But the word is to forelove... This means He chose to have a relationship before time with a specific people... It has NOTHING to do with Him "looking into the future" (prescient)...

 

rc,

You said,

In your post you are at best running for cover. It is not a new experience to us that Calvinists evade not only our comments but the Scripture which proves their worth. Not humanism; it is exegesis for you to believe. Nice try.

 

Hi RC;

Haven't you read the whole Bible yet?

Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Doesn't say anything here about help from God. Although I'm sure He would if you only asked.

Talk about easy. The jailer asked old Paul once this is what was said;
Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It is not me that makes a simple act complicated. How much more simple can it get?

Your wrong forelove isn't even in the Bible.
May Christ Shine His light On Us All;
Mike

 

rc,

Yes, anyway rc, quit pulling our Arminian leg. Check your facts first.

 

The elect are all who have accepted Christ as savior. They're elect because God knew they would accept Christ as savior before they did. That does not in any way diminish their free will or ability to choose to follow Christ.

Don't overanalyze this. You'll just give yourself a headache.

 

I'm not using the Bible? And PLEASE... giving me, a Jew the Torah? ... And fore "loved" isn't in the Bible? ...

Take at least a Theology 101 class before gutting the Torah..

Adam "knew" Eve... what kind of "knowing" did Adam have of Eve that bore them children? Hmmmm

I assumed that you would of looked at my post exegeting the word that you presceints butcher.. knowledge.. The word is used as "loving,intimatly relationalywhen used AS A VERB ! ... AND it is used ALWAYS as a noun when talking about knowing something FACTUALLY... When God "foreknows" as in "Those who He FOREKNEW it is a ...(I know this is going to come as a shock, but ...) VERB,,, VERB,,, VERB ! Thus God Forknew as "Foreloved". It's in the Bible...sorry. Before the were born Jacob I "loved" (thus foreloved) and Esau I hated...
I could go on and on... NO PRESCIENCE at all. Choosing cause someone choose you is BAD scholarship let alone illogical... The point of the electing is useless if you are going to choose anyway... The purpose of electing is mute.

Secondly, as I already stated as did others that you can not take a indicative statement (as the Deut. 4 verse posted and use it as an IMPERATIVE ! ) It's simple grammer... It is a command NOT something that you can imply anything from!

And from the NARRATIVE in Acts. You can't build doctrine from NARRATIVE. You can only take it for what it describing. I can just as easily say the same thing from that narrative. The arguement isn't that "All You have to do is believe" that we are discussing it is the action prior to that to CAUSE him to believe. The narrative is quiet on the issue, and so should we.

 

Hi RC;

The phrase "Adam Knew Eve" says nothing about "foreLove". You should consider that when this was said they were already driven out of the Garden. Adam did know her before this incident. After all Adam did eat the fruit because He loved her more than God.
Knowing a person before hand doesn't mean love was involved. There is no way this could be translated into "Forelove". Not to mention that Sex is not Love.

Whether or not your a Jew doesn't impress me any more than meeting any other person from any other race. Being a Jew doesn't make you anymore knowledgable than anyone else. Since you claim to be a Jew maybe you could explain why God gave the Jews free choice.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

It's very obvious from this passage that men can turn them selves from sin and not only this but can choose to seek God instead.
May Christ Shine His light On Us All;
Mike

 

I luv light

You are not understanding my exegesis properly. I did not say that the "knowing" of Adam and Eve was foreloving...I'm talking about the word "know" and using the principle of exegetical constancy.... which is a law of hermeneutics. My point was that the word is used as a intamate, relational when it is used as a verb i.e. Adam and Eve for ONE example and when used always as a noun it is for factual purposes... You did the exact opposite of what the Bible implies! Of course Adam knew Eve before that point..but you missed the point of what that word was implying! And I did not try to force "forloveed" there either... The only point was the word "know" in the verb sense meant relational... the "forelove" if you read my post is implied in Rom 8 because it is a verb and not a noun... simple rule of exegetical constancy.

Again if you know grammer and have Bible software (Bibleworks is the best) you find that all the statements like EzEk 33.11 are NOT inductive but in the IMPERATIVE !! Don't you know the unbelievable importance of knowing the differance is grammatically for understanding this properly? It's 7th grade Hebrew that your not understanding here... I will make this point by making things OBVIOUS. When God uses the imperative it is a command. The commands are ALWAYS to show man's duty not ability. The knowledge of the law is SIN and as Luther states to Erasmus :
Scripture describes man as corrupted and led captive, and, furthermore, as proudly disdaining to notice, and failing to recognise, his own corruption and captivity; therefore, it uses these phrases to goad and rouse him, that he may know by sure experience how unable he is to do any of thes things.
So the words of the law are spoken, not to assert the power of the will, but to illuminate the blindness of reason, so that it may see that its own light is nothing, and the power of the will is nothing. By the law is knowledge of sin as Paul says. The entire DESIGN and power of the law is jut to give knowledge, and that of nothing but of sin; not to display or confer any power. This knowledge is not power, nor does it bring power; but it teaches and displays that there is here no power, and great weakness. What can :knowledge of sin be, but knowledge of our weakness and badness?

Don't try to make the Ten "imperatives" into the Ten "inductions".

 

A few verses supporting election:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.


John 6:44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.


Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


John 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.


Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

 

It has always been my belief that the scriptures teach election. This is not a Calvinistic interpretation but a biblical one. The problem with the Arminian mindset is that it does not and never can harmonize scripture. Do not make election something that the dead alien sinner who is in the darkness of his total depravity can elect to do anything and surely not choose Christ.
Christ does not do the choosing either!... All the Father giveth ME... Shall come to ME!... God sent his beloved Son and the Son came to do the will of the Father... Not the will of the sinner... How can the sinner choose eternal life being not yet born?... Yet God set his plan in motion before the earth was created in the halls of eternity.
Election according to the way I see and understand scripture embraces ALL the sheep the Father gave the Son Jesus Christ and ALL those he died for and non else. Grace in the Calvinist mindset is the most Amazing Grace a child of grace will ever know.
Not one drop of blood Christ shed was ever purchased by one of God's children for as sure as they are the elect of God Salvation is free. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God just as the scriptures say. The bible never says that God looked down through the ages of time and make his election on those who would choose to believe on his Son.
Election is also for every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. God also reads the heart and since none of us are adept as God is at reading the heart how can you know who is elect and who isn't?... Also since you have to walk in another mans shoes to know him how can you say they are not elect unless God says so?
We would do well brethren to let God handle election as he has done over the ages and added down through life those that belong to Christ. Remember according to scripture that the elect of God in heaven are as the sand of the seas and the stars of the sky... A innumerable host that no man can number. Finally the reason any child of God answers is because he was predestinated first... Predestination= Election and God calls his predestined elected children who he justified and glorified. Romans 8:29-39 declares it is All God's work and his alone... God wrought and God bought!... According to the Arminian brethren their doctrine of election or the non election of election is a broken cistern that cannot hold doctrinal water!... Brother Glen

 

Tyndale 1946,

The Catholic Reformers of 1517 and forward in time, turned Protestant--only dragged their Catholicism into Biblical theology as they understood it in their lifetime. There Doctrines of Grace are in fact Doctrines of Disgrace in that they place the blame of eternal damnation at the feet of Jesus, the Savior of the world. [John 1:7; 1:29; 3:16; 5:24; Acts 2:21; Romans 5:1; I Timothy 2:4 {check the Greek on ‘will have all ’ and you will find it is the word, ‘wishes’; Hebrews 1:9; I John 5:13; and Revelation 22:17f} for starter verses.

Biblical interpretation makes it clear, I am sure even to your grandchildren’s reading, that salvation has been secured for every lost sinner. [I John 2:2]

If you are right I am sure you will explain to us a brief explanation for each or at least some of these verses. Explain to us John 1:7, I Timothy 2:4, Hebrews 1:9 and Revelation 22:17.

Your Five Points were handed down from Augustine down through the centuries of Catholicism to John Calvin, who systematized the ideas of St. Augustine. Luther, Zwingli, Knox all poured themselves into Calvin’s repeated errors in Scripture.

Dr. R.C. Sproul, Mr. Harold Camping and other men still are carrying Romanism’s torch, but not to the glory of the Lord God.

Divine Despotism as you teach it makes the caring and dying Lord, not ascended a Monster who damns souls at will. Go and dovetail this with the attributes of Jesus Love and Divine Justice. The first Adam dragged us all into Original Sin, but Jesus, the second Adam is ineffectual in that He only died for the Original Sin and sins of some of His lost creation, says the Calvinist view.

Again, don’t review your understanding of things to us; we know where you are coming from theologically speaking. Focus on paragraph three! We are anxious to read your distortions of God’s holy truth.

 

I meant to say, 'now ascended' in the second from the end paragraph of my last post. Sorry.

 

Look to the cross of Christ Ray... Election is taught in it's full glory. If thou be the Son of God save thyself and us. Notice that there is a change in one thief. What caused the change?... The scriptures never say but he states Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Christ response... This day shalt thou be with me in paradise. What did he do to get eternal life?... Where was the preacher?... Where was the altar call?... Yet there is a change and he is bound for glory. His cold and stony heart was changed into a heart of flesh as he was crucified. He did nothing to get it as he was of the elect. The other thief was of the non elect. Christ never said anything to him. Never on the cross according to any scripture I ever read does Christ say believe on me to either man. The man is changed and then he tells Christ to remember him. Arminians are still to this day trying to get the cart before the horse to a doctrinal wagon that won't pull. Election is not the sinner cast a vote and then God cast his vote. The dead alien sinner has no vote as God's election is his and his alone no matter what the world says... Brother Glen